{"items": [{"author": "Ruthan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=803046546162", "anchor": "fb-803046546162", "service": "fb", "text": "I do think air conditioning is run more enthusiastically than necessary sometimes (or perhaps is subject to worse air handling). Having to strip down to skivvies indoors in the winter isn't a thing the way having to bundle up in an office in July is.", "timestamp": "1470001116"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=803046546162&reply_comment_id=803047768712", "anchor": "fb-803046546162_803047768712", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I think you're right, especially for offices/stores/etc, but I've been to many houses heated to T-shirt range in winter.", "timestamp": "1470001912"}, {"author": "Ruthan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=803046546162&reply_comment_id=803047918412", "anchor": "fb-803046546162_803047918412", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I guess my baseline comparison right now is a part of the country where it's impossible to get any given house very warm anyway, because no one believed in insulation when the houses were built. :P", "timestamp": "1470002112"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=803046546162&reply_comment_id=803048197852", "anchor": "fb-803046546162_803048197852", "service": "fb", "text": "→ There wasn't much insulation at construction time in Boston either, but heating is expensive enough for it to have been worth retrofitting.", "timestamp": "1470002215"}, {"author": "Maxwell", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=803046546162&reply_comment_id=803050084072", "anchor": "fb-803046546162_803050084072", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I'd like to push back on this. If you are cold, you can do things to warm up: sweaters, blankets, cuddling, etc. If you are hot, there's only so much you can take off before you can't cool down anymore. I have a small AC unit built into my apartment's wall in the living room, and the cold air does not circulate into the bedroom. In recent weeks I've been too hot, even when naked with no covers at all, to fall asleep. I've resorted to putting ice cubes in plastic baggies and bringing them to bed with me, and wiping myself down with a damp washcloth, which is kind of gross because when I wake up it's still in bed with me and the mattress has soaked up all the water. There's not much I can do about this, but if anyone else had the option to be this uncomfortable or use the AC, I would not judge them for it.", "timestamp": "1470003228"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=803046546162&reply_comment_id=803050782672", "anchor": "fb-803046546162_803050782672", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @Maxwell: Setting up fans inside your apartment to move as much air between your bedroom and living room as possible seems like it could help a lot? And blacking out your bedroom windows to keep the sun from heating it up during the day.", "timestamp": "1470003352"}, {"author": "Ruthan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=803046546162&reply_comment_id=803050942352", "anchor": "fb-803046546162_803050942352", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Wearing five comforters around your office is not meaningfully less disruptive than going naked. (I don't think.)", "timestamp": "1470003417"}, {"author": "Pinkie", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=803046546162&reply_comment_id=803082094922", "anchor": "fb-803046546162_803082094922", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Sunburn+heat=misery
Aircondining is my only solace", "timestamp": "1470015599"}, {"author": "Erin", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=803046546162&reply_comment_id=803103352322", "anchor": "fb-803046546162_803103352322", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Maxwell I second what Jeff said: get several box fans & run them so they direct the AC from your living room to bedroom, and keep the shades down in your bedroom during the day. You might also try opening all the windows on days / nights when it goes below 80, as warmer moving air feels cooler than semi-stagnant AC'd air. But on another note - how will you ever reconcile your AC-loving ways to the weird Italian fear of AC?", "timestamp": "1470024728"}, {"author": "Frederic", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=803047324602", "anchor": "fb-803047324602", "service": "fb", "text": "Well, the point is to lower your footprint wherever you happen to be.", "timestamp": "1470001545"}, {"author": "Ruthan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=803047604042", "anchor": "fb-803047604042", "service": "fb", "text": "What we should probably actually do if we really care about the environment is just move to Key West.", "timestamp": "1470001723"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=803047604042&reply_comment_id=803179594532", "anchor": "fb-803047604042_803179594532", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Well, if you don't want to move there are probably ways to help the environment more with less sacrifice. I suspect even just buying offsets would do more.", "timestamp": "1470070314"}, {"author": "Wolf", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=803064465252", "anchor": "fb-803064465252", "service": "fb", "text": "Where I live, energy from gas costs three times less than energy from electricity. If this this somewhat reflects the cost (efficiency) of creating these forms of energy sources this would make ACs much worse off. And that is not even factoring in that heating systems probably are more power efficient than cooling systems.", "timestamp": "1470009753"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=803064465252&reply_comment_id=803179764192", "anchor": "fb-803064465252_803179764192", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Cooling systems are more power efficient because they're heat pumps. This lets them have an \"efficiency\" over 100%.", "timestamp": "1470070399"}, {"author": "Wolf", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=803064465252&reply_comment_id=803181765182", "anchor": "fb-803064465252_803181765182", "service": "fb", "text": "→ \"This lets them have an \"efficiency\" over 100%.\"
Didn't know this was even possible.", "timestamp": "1470071471"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=803064465252&reply_comment_id=803184873952", "anchor": "fb-803064465252_803184873952", "service": "fb", "text": "→ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_performance", "timestamp": "1470073205"}, {"author": "Aryeh", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=803064465252&reply_comment_id=803185357982", "anchor": "fb-803064465252_803185357982", "service": "fb", "text": "→ It's not possible... a Coefficient of Performance > 1 is not the same as efficiency > 100%. Like anything else, heat pumps cannot exceed their Carnot efficiency. Actual COP is Q / W (heat / work), Carnot COP is always higher, would be T_H / (T_H - T_C)", "timestamp": "1470073498"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=803064465252&reply_comment_id=803185946802", "anchor": "fb-803064465252_803185946802", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Sorry, I'm using \"efficiency\" in the colloquial sense. COP is what I mean.", "timestamp": "1470073892"}, {"author": "Scott", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=803066680812", "anchor": "fb-803066680812", "service": "fb", "text": "\"Heating emits less CO2 per degree than cooling\" -- Do you have a reference on this? My understanding was air conditioners operate as heat pumps with a coefficient of performance (COP) of around 3 or 4, so for every joule consumed, 3-4x that is pumped out of your house, cooling it. But to heat a house one typically burns a fuel and creates some heat directly , COP = 1. There are ways to make geothermal heat pumps but this is not frequently done. The problem may be that AC always uses electricity for energy rather than oil or natural gas.", "timestamp": "1470011305"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=803066680812&reply_comment_id=803085403292", "anchor": "fb-803066680812_803085403292", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Pretty sure it's AC using electricity that's the problem; I'll check when I have my laptop.", "timestamp": "1470016561"}, {"author": "Adam", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=803066680812&reply_comment_id=803086685722", "anchor": "fb-803066680812_803086685722", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman Mini-splits can have a COP as high as 6. Also, a great number of grid-tied solar powered homes are going to mini-splits b/c they are vastly more efficient, even with a 30% grid efficiency and no solar.", "timestamp": "1470017290"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=803066680812&reply_comment_id=803158222362", "anchor": "fb-803066680812_803158222362", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Heat pumps have higher heating/joule than direct heating, but higher maintenance costs and it's often harder to distribute that heat to living spaces (you can't put the compressor in the living room)", "timestamp": "1470060434"}, {"author": "Aryeh", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=803066680812&reply_comment_id=803185642412", "anchor": "fb-803066680812_803185642412", "service": "fb", "text": "→ For gas heating and electric cooling, the delta CO2 emissions are largely determined by the local generation mix (i.e. coal vs natural gas vs clean). See for example the effective gas mileage of your electric vehicle, by US region: http://www.ucsusa.org/.../vehicles-m-ev-emissions-region...", "timestamp": "1470073666"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=803066680812&reply_comment_id=803185931832", "anchor": "fb-803066680812_803185931832", "service": "fb", "text": "→ \"determined by the local generation mix\"
Seems like it's the source of marginal power that matters for this, which I'm guessing could be very different from the local mix.", "timestamp": "1470073882"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=803066680812&reply_comment_id=803185991712", "anchor": "fb-803066680812_803185991712", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Marginal power *at the time of day that you want air conditioning*, that is.", "timestamp": "1470073913"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=803066680812&reply_comment_id=803186156382", "anchor": "fb-803066680812_803186156382", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @David: This is especially important in places that look good because much of their baseload is hydro or nuclear. We're not building out any more of either.", "timestamp": "1470073948"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=803066680812&reply_comment_id=803186400892", "anchor": "fb-803066680812_803186400892", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Yep. Also: \"Where does marginal power come from?\" is sort of complicated and depends on time horizon.", "timestamp": "1470074071"}, {"author": "Aryeh", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=803066680812&reply_comment_id=803186919852", "anchor": "fb-803066680812_803186919852", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I tend to think generation mix is more meaningful; who is to say that your home's AC use turned on a peaking plant? I guess the best metric would be to look at the real-time generation mix at peak AC time, which would definitely be more CO2-intensive than the time-average generation mix", "timestamp": "1470074143"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=803066680812&reply_comment_id=803188741202", "anchor": "fb-803066680812_803188741202", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I'm not saying it's easy to figure out where marginal power comes from, just that that's the relevant thing for this purpose. You'd probably speak in terms of probabilities / expected values (probability you got that plant turned on).", "timestamp": "1470074624"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=803066680812&reply_comment_id=803203312002", "anchor": "fb-803066680812_803203312002", "service": "fb", "text": "→ \"who is to say that your home's AC use turned on a peaking plant?\"
If I'm a marginal AC user, considering whether to use it on the hottest day of the year, then my power really very likely comes from a peaking plant.", "timestamp": "1470081389"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=803066680812&reply_comment_id=803203371882", "anchor": "fb-803066680812_803203371882", "service": "fb", "text": "→ If I'm a marginal AC user in the sense of trying to decide whether to move to a hot region, then we're somewhere between looking at peaking plants and looking at what new capacity is planned / coming online. Either way nukes and hydro are already fully allocated and not under construction.", "timestamp": "1470081460"}, {"author": "Aryeh", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=803066680812&reply_comment_id=803206755102", "anchor": "fb-803066680812_803206755102", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Sure but coal is fully allocated too. I believe most grids are greening with new capacity addition, whether gas or renewables", "timestamp": "1470083012"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=803066680812&reply_comment_id=803230692132", "anchor": "fb-803066680812_803230692132", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @Aryeh: Makes sense, though I think it's (sadly) more likely that things change and we build more coal plants than more nuke plants.", "timestamp": "1470095513"}, {"author": "James", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=803074530082", "anchor": "fb-803074530082", "service": "fb", "text": "Additional factors: the delta T (difference between outdoor and indoor temp) is typically much less in AC mode than in heating mode and AC mechanicals have more than doubled in efficiency in the last decade so. Annual energy costs in majority cooling zones are typically much less than in majority heating zones. Wouldn't recommend moving to Key West though - you have to factor in transportation of supplies across all those miles of highway.", "timestamp": "1470013122"}, {"author": "Ruthan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=803074530082&reply_comment_id=803085627842", "anchor": "fb-803074530082_803085627842", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I thought about that, and then I vaguely recalled some study that showed that it was way better to order everything via Amazon than shop for your own groceries.", "timestamp": "1470016671"}, {"author": "Ruthan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=803074530082&reply_comment_id=803085677742", "anchor": "fb-803074530082_803085677742", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Also, Key West. You don't really have to buy clothes! Think of the savings. Also, did I mention Key West?", "timestamp": "1470016697"}, {"author": "James", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=803074694752", "anchor": "fb-803074694752", "service": "fb", "text": "Plus, gas is cheap right now but won't continue so if fracking gets shut down. Meanwhile nice renewable solar electricity gets cheaper every year.", "timestamp": "1470013220"}, {"author": "Erica", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=803192942782", "anchor": "fb-803192942782", "service": "fb", "text": "It's like fretting over shower length, when most water is going to agriculture.
NYC has BY FAR the lowest CO2 emissions per capita than anywhere else in the US. Everyone taking public transit, and living like sardines sharing heating and cooling, and not having wasteful yards, etc. does way more good than places like Portland where they CARE and apply a lot of effort, but don't sardine themselves :p", "timestamp": "1470076256"}, {"author": "unknown", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ unknown", "timestamp": "-1"}, {"author": "James", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=803212728132", "anchor": "fb-803212728132", "service": "fb", "text": "Here's an interesting link. Baaad, Texas. New York State not so great overall.
http://www.eia.gov/environment/emissions/state/analysis/", "timestamp": "1470086521"}, {"author": "James", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=803213122342", "anchor": "fb-803213122342", "service": "fb", "text": "Edit: I was looking at overall emissions, not per capita. Baaad Wyoming and N. Dakota! New York State is overall pretty darn good, and NYC is def. the best urban area. D.C. is the best taken as a 'state'.", "timestamp": "1470086851"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=803213122342&reply_comment_id=803229364792", "anchor": "fb-803213122342_803229364792", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Doesn't this ignore things like where pollution-heavy industries are located? Attributing that all to the producers and not to the consumers doesn't make sense.", "timestamp": "1470094906"}, {"author": "James", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=803213122342&reply_comment_id=803230093332", "anchor": "fb-803213122342_803230093332", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman good point", "timestamp": "1470095104"}, {"author": "Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=803285901492", "anchor": "fb-803285901492", "service": "fb", "text": "What I want to know is, why aren't there home air conditioners (as far as I can tell) that consider both indoor and outdoor temperatures to determine whether to run in AC mode, fan mode, or turn off? It should be trivial these days to have an AC unit communicate with a remote thermometer, or even look up the local temperature online. That way it could run in fan mode at times when it would be helpful to do so, automatically turn off the moment that blowing in outside air becomes counterproductive, and then operate as an air conditioner only when it is sufficiently hot inside *and* even hotter outside.", "timestamp": "1470123976"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=803285901492&reply_comment_id=803316604962", "anchor": "fb-803285901492_803316604962", "service": "fb", "text": "→ A smarter AC makes sense, but it's more complex than what you have because blowing in outside air at 70F when your inside is 80F may not be cheaper if (a) you're going to go back to AC later in the day when it gets hot and (b) it's at all humid outside. AC does most of its work removing humidity from the air, so letting in cool humid air isn't beneficial.", "timestamp": "1470147380"}, {"author": "Josh", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=803414688402", "anchor": "fb-803414688402", "service": "fb", "text": "(The late) David MacKay's \"Without Hot Air\" is a pretty thorough weighing of energy consumption (https://www.withouthotair.com). There's a fair amount about heating efficiency.", "timestamp": "1470186484"}, {"author": "Ray", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=10100103473789532", "anchor": "fb-10100103473789532", "service": "fb", "text": "This post was heavily influential on my thinking about this. Recently, though, I've read that the use of hydrofluorocarbons as refrigerants in most air conditioning units renders air conditioning more climate-impactful than your analysis accounts for. HFCs are released or escape into the atmosphere when air conditioning units are disposed of at the end of their useful life. HFCs are greenhouse gases that are several orders of magnitude more powerful than CO2. Does this change your view at all? I will post some links for your review in the replies to this comment.", "timestamp": "1564062206"}, {"author": "Ray", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=10100103473789532&reply_comment_id=10100103473794522", "anchor": "fb-10100103473789532_10100103473794522", "service": "fb", "text": "→ https://www.drawdown.org/.../mater.../refrigerant-management", "timestamp": "1564062221"}, {"author": "Ray", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/803042878512?comment_id=10100103473789532&reply_comment_id=10100103473804502", "anchor": "fb-10100103473789532_10100103473804502", "service": "fb", "text": "→ http://theconversation.com/explainer-hydrofluorocarbons...", "timestamp": "1564062232"}]}