{"items": [{"author": "Alexander", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/106808239073321070854", "anchor": "gp-1349708540773", "service": "gp", "text": "At some point I'd like to try LSD under controlled circumstances...", "timestamp": 1349708540}, {"author": "Alice", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/209368545863135?comment_id=209374289195894", "anchor": "fb-209374289195894", "service": "fb", "text": "Yes because then I could finally make you a cup of the really good chai tea I got in India", "timestamp": "1349708755"}, {"author": "Ken", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/209368545863135?comment_id=209376759195647", "anchor": "fb-209376759195647", "service": "fb", "text": "I haven't done this research \u2014 what effect does caffeine have on the way you think?
And what is the benefit to reassessing this stance? Has something happened to make you question the value of such substances?", "timestamp": "1349709254"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/209368545863135?comment_id=209378229195500", "anchor": "fb-209378229195500", "service": "fb", "text": "Ken: \"What is the benefit to reassessing this stance? Has something happened to make you question the value of such substances?
Mostly it's that this is something where I made a decision about ten years ago and don't entirely trust my cached thinking.
\"what effect does caffeine have on the way you think?\"
It's a stimulant, primarily making you less sleepy.", "timestamp": "1349709572"}, {"author": "Ken", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/209368545863135?comment_id=209381839195139", "anchor": "fb-209381839195139", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff, thanks for the reply. It's worth revisiting and re-evaluating old decisions every now and then. As I made a decision similar to yours more than a decade ago, I'll be curious if you find significant information that wasn't available to you the first time around.", "timestamp": "1349710166"}, {"author": "David", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/209368545863135?comment_id=209382145861775", "anchor": "fb-209382145861775", "service": "fb", "text": "Do you make exceptions for times when changing your thought processes can increase safety? E.g. using caffeine when driving home from the Dawn Dance?", "timestamp": "1349710227"}, {"author": "David", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/209368545863135?comment_id=209384475861542", "anchor": "fb-209384475861542", "service": "fb", "text": "And what about things that change how you think indirectly? After a long, dreary, and physically active day when I still have work left to do, I find chocolate can help motivate me to keep going. Partly it's the sugar and fat, partly it's the stopping to relax, and partly it's just that chocolate reminds me that there's still room for luxuries.", "timestamp": "1349710603"}, {"author": "Danner", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/209368545863135?comment_id=209384769194846", "anchor": "fb-209384769194846", "service": "fb", "text": "I was completely off any sort of medication(no caffeine, no advil, no tylenol, no alcohol), till almost 22. I thought that this was an important thing that I could not have after starting. I also recognized that as part of my goal of knowing everything, ingesting these sorts of things would eventually become part of my goal, as alcohol and such are far too great a part of society to ignore.
Recently I noticed myself having a drink in my hand at every single gathering, so I've decided to try staying sober at around half of gatherings where I have the option to drink. No problems, things are still funny and people are still enjoyable without drinking, and yes, it creates a different sort of experience, but neither are unpleasant in moderation.
David, there are other alternatives, like taking a nap, or switching drivers. Caffeine never has really helped me stay awake, just makes me feel like I'm having heart palpatations.", "timestamp": "1349710657"}, {"author": "Tili", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/118108129276220020003", "anchor": "gp-1349711842579", "service": "gp", "text": "I think the fact that your two notable experiences made you like the way you think less is probably too much of an influence? One of the reasons many people use drugs of various sorts is because they \nlike\n the temporary change in their state of mind. This, for example, is true of me, and determines what situations I'll drink in. When I'm already uncomfortable, it only makes it worse. But if I'm happy and among friends, being somewhat drunk increases my feeling of comfort. It's not a way of thinking I would want to have at all times, just like I wouldn't want to be always getting a thrill from watching a scary movie, but I enjoy both experiences at times. (I should note that I'm not trying to say that getting scared by fiction is anything like as profound a change as getting drunk. But the difference seems to me more one of degree than of kind. After all, it's partly chemicals in my body that give me that thrill, and partly cultural context, and these basic factors are at play with alcohol too.)", "timestamp": 1349711842}, {"author": "Bill", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/209368545863135?comment_id=209412162525440", "anchor": "fb-209412162525440", "service": "fb", "text": "I was more experimental in my early 20's, but found the experience of having my mind altered noticeably to be boring, so I stopped and now I politely decline most offers. I enjoy *a* beer or *a* glass of wine with dinner from time to time, provided that I expect not to drive for the next hour, as the peak level of blood alcohol does not alter my mood enough to be noticeable unless I work to find it. I also don't mind small amounts of caffeine delivered in colas, teas or chocolate. Coffee as a flavoring agent is sometimes okay (mocha, where coffee flavors chocolate rather than chocolate flavors coffee), but in general I dislike the flavor and aroma of coffee. OTCs that affect mood (pseudo-ephedrine especially) I avoid except where I desperately need the theraputic effect when I cannot avoid a social engagement. (I was once prescribed a 24-hour timed-release formulation of pseudoephedrine. I didn't sleep for 2 days. Never again!)", "timestamp": "1349715803"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/209368545863135?comment_id=209418669191456", "anchor": "fb-209418669191456", "service": "fb", "text": "@David: \"using caffeine when driving home from the Dawn Dance?\"
By analogy: when I have use of a faster mode of transport I don't get places earlier, I leave later. Whatever boundary I have, I'm going to adjust until I'm pretty much at it.So if I were to decide I was ok using caffeine when driving late at night I suspect I would get to the point where I relied on it. Alertness and hence safety probably wouldn't change; see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation", "timestamp": "1349716949"}, {"author": "Andrew", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/209368545863135?comment_id=209426145857375", "anchor": "fb-209426145857375", "service": "fb", "text": "I had a similar policy for quite similar reasons, which I've gradually relaxed a bit: I now drink (and enjoy) moderate quantities of alcohol. To be honest, I decided to start drinking mostly as a culinary matter--people seemed to enjoy the taste of wine and cocktails, and I wanted to try to understand that. I've come to appreciate some wine and cocktails, although I wouldn't say I have a sophisticated palate; I still have no interest whatsoever in beer, because I find it wholly unpleasant to drink. I slow or stop drinking as soon as I notice that it's starting to affect my cognitive functions. I still have no interest in hallucinogenic drugs, pot, etc. My reason for not drinking caffeine is because I don't want to become dependent.
I think your position against mind-altering substances is fine; I also think it's healthy to periodically re-evaluate such stances to make sure you still believe them. A motto I learned from my dad and tend to live by: \"moderation in everything--including moderation.\"", "timestamp": "1349718154"}, {"author": "David", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/209368545863135?comment_id=209428782523778", "anchor": "fb-209428782523778", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff: I agree about risk compensation, but I don't see how relying on caffeine follows from it. I'm not talking about using caffeine regularly, just keeping it handy and using only if it seems worthwhile (which for me is usually less than once per year). With caffeine as an option, I aim for the risk boundary instead of just below the risk boundary. If I go over, I use the caffeine, if I don't then I don't use it. Over time, I've both gotten better at judging how tired I'll be and at adjusting my sleep schedule to be less tired when I want to be. Both of those factors have let me do more (e.g. drive later) while maintaining even levels of perceived risk. Without keeping caffeine handy and occasionally using it, I don't think I would have pushed my boundaries as much. Also, a side effect of pushing my boundaries is that I find it increasingly rare that I actually use the caffeine I carry because fewer desirable situations are at or past my boundaries.", "timestamp": "1349718544"}, {"author": "Danner", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/209368545863135?comment_id=209441149189208", "anchor": "fb-209441149189208", "service": "fb", "text": "Andrew: Wine+food and beer+food are definitely reasons to drink. The combination is more pleasant than either apart from each other, and you don't need to get drunk to see the appeal of a nice red wine clearing the palette of the steak fats, and the fats balancing and mellowing the wine, making the entire experience more wonderful.", "timestamp": "1349720942"}, {"author": "Bryan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/209368545863135?comment_id=209542759179047", "anchor": "fb-209542759179047", "service": "fb", "text": "If you revisit this question with the same assumptions, you are going to reach the same conclusion as your teenage self. I'm going to propose some more fundamental (leading) questions:
1) There are other methods of chemically altering the brain without substances, from exercise to orgasms. What is it about substances that changes the equation?
2) What makes a person \"not themselves\"? Couldn't the effect of chemical changes in the brain be a part of who they are?
3) We have used our intelligence to create tools to enhance our bodies, from shoes to bicycles to phones, why not also use the tools we have to enhance our minds?
4) Are you concerned that under the influence you may have limited intentional control over your behavior? Would your desire to drink change if that wasn't true: http://goo.gl/3h0qT?
5) Is it possible that changing the way you think isn't to be avoided, but is helpful for jumping out of local optima? Various substances can help assist problem solving when you are either focusing too deeply, or too often skipping around from idea to idea.
6) And a more personal one, what's your impression of yourself when you're not self-monitoring? Do you define who you are more by your outward personality, or your personal desires? If that effects your decision about substances, do you want it to?", "timestamp": "1349743407"}, {"author": "Todd", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/112947709146257842066", "anchor": "gp-1349760907796", "service": "gp", "text": "@David German\n\u00a0and I reached a similar conclusion at around the same time. Since then, our behavior has not fully respected that conclusion, at least to my knowledge. I've actually wanted to ask David his updated thoughts on it for awhile, but have failed to actually do so when I've had the opportunity. Now seems like a good time =P\n
\n
\nAs for me, I think in general my actions aren't as well-guided by my principles as yours are. Which is to say, I don't know that I necessarily changed my mind about that conclusion, I just didn't really stick to the conviction, for reasons I'm not sure I've ever really processed. I don't drink very heavily or particularly often, but that's more because of other aspects that I dislike about it aside from mind-alteration. My willingness to try any other drugs (in the non-pharmaceutical sense) is basically nil, though.\n
\n
\n@Lucas\n\u00a0\"is there any temporary change in your state of mind which you would ever find beneficial?\" A boost in confidence is the first thing that comes to mind, and also happens to be something strongly associated with alcohol (though I can't really say that's been a significant part of my experience).", "timestamp": 1349760907}, {"author": "Boris", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/105448664107044682433", "anchor": "gp-1349822241655", "service": "gp", "text": "Seems that that the temporary loss of control and 'personhood' is a small price to pay for what seem to be life-lasting beneficial effects the overwhelming majority of users speak about.", "timestamp": 1349822241}, {"author": "Todd", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/112947709146257842066", "anchor": "gp-1349835085899", "service": "gp", "text": "Sometimes the majority is wrong. Also, I'm not really sure what you mean by \"life-lasting\".", "timestamp": 1349835085}, {"author": "David German", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/111229345142780712481", "anchor": "gp-1349841489118", "service": "gp", "text": "I don't think that the self is static. \u00a0\"How I think\" is constantly changing in response to all sorts of influences, physical and mental. \u00a0In turn, my current mode of thinking determines the influences I select in the future.\n
\n
\nI don't see a way out of that loop: life itself changes how one thinks! \u00a0Sleep, learning, friendship, work, diet, love, medicine, exercise, addiction, injury, age, insight, pain, comfort, fear...it all changes people, with varying intensity, transience, risk, and benefit. \u00a0To the extent I get to choose my experiences, living well is a matter of selecting ones that encourage the future self I want, not of preserving some \"real me\".\n
\n
\nApproaching the question from the other side, I've found that caffeine and alcohol, in moderation, don't change how I think very much. \u00a0In the short term, a latte or a glass of beer has less influence on my self than a good night's sleep or a bad lunch. \u00a0In the long term, neither has a perceptible influence at all. \u00a0There's just not much at stake.", "timestamp": 1349841489}, {"author": "Todd", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/112947709146257842066", "anchor": "gp-1349841822229", "service": "gp", "text": "@David German\n\u00a0What about \nnot\n in moderation?", "timestamp": 1349841822}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/106120852580068301475", "anchor": "gp-1349847486173", "service": "gp", "text": "Only tangentially related, but great: \nhttp://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2705#comic\n ", "timestamp": 1349847486}, {"author": "David German", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/111229345142780712481", "anchor": "gp-1349874661928", "service": "gp", "text": "@Todd\n\u00a0Then the effects on self are greater, and the change is worth more consideration?", "timestamp": 1349874661}, {"author": "Todd", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/112947709146257842066", "anchor": "gp-1349876560551", "service": "gp", "text": "@David German\n\u00a0Your first two paragraphs, combined with your point about the lack of long-term effects, make it seem like that still wouldn't be a significant obstacle.", "timestamp": 1349876560}, {"author": "Boris", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/105448664107044682433", "anchor": "gp-1349929628233", "service": "gp", "text": "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_Chapel_Experiment\n
\none example", "timestamp": 1349929628}]}