{"items": [{"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793143472002", "anchor": "fb-793143472002", "service": "fb", "text": "Minor: without context, \"EAs\" in the last paragraph comes off as a non sequitur.", "timestamp": "1465954564"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793143472002&reply_comment_id=793208137412", "anchor": "fb-793143472002_793208137412", "service": "fb", "text": "→ reworded as a footnote, thanks!", "timestamp": "1465965526"}, {"author": "Ruthan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793177718372", "anchor": "fb-793177718372", "service": "fb", "text": "WHAT IF you could cater an all-veg weekend at a lower cost per head, and registrants got the option to pay either the lower cost or the standard cost with the surplus going to some suitable dancey cause???? And then someone could be like HEY, CHARITABLE WEEKEND VEGETARIANS, YOU COULD DO THIS MORE OFTEN, YOU KNOW.", "timestamp": "1465960657"}, {"author": "Ruthan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793177718372&reply_comment_id=793177758292", "anchor": "fb-793177718372_793177758292", "service": "fb", "text": "→ (Is like the time I invented choirs or the post office, i.e., a thing people already do that I'm just totally forgetting?)", "timestamp": "1465960717"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793177718372&reply_comment_id=793178661482", "anchor": "fb-793177718372_793178661482", "service": "fb", "text": "→ My impression is that there wouldn't actually be noticeable savings: the cost of food ingredients isn't that big, and to get good vegetarian food you probably need to find a new caterer with higher labor costs.", "timestamp": "1465960910"}, {"author": "Ruthan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793177718372&reply_comment_id=793178821162", "anchor": "fb-793177718372_793178821162", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Ah, see, I was thinking rice and beans and salsa for everyone. (Because if everyone smells like garlic, no one smells like garlic?)", "timestamp": "1465960996"}, {"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793177718372&reply_comment_id=793221206222", "anchor": "fb-793177718372_793221206222", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Gruel!", "timestamp": "1465972350"}, {"author": "Adam", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793190168422", "anchor": "fb-793190168422", "service": "fb", "text": "There is a LOT of really good vegie cooking out there, but one of the issues of vegetarianism and veganism is the temptation to rely on carbs and sugars to round out the meal which just makes it awful and boring. I also find that the level of fat in most vegetarian cooking to be inadequate.", "timestamp": "1465962388"}, {"author": "Jacy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793207433822", "anchor": "fb-793207433822", "service": "fb", "text": "", "timestamp": "1465964908"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793207433822&reply_comment_id=793207987712", "anchor": "fb-793207433822_793207987712", "service": "fb", "text": "→ \"didn't frame 'no meat, no go' as a default position\"
I had both \"no meat, no go\" and \"yes meat, no go\" as options; do you think I should have included neither?", "timestamp": "1465965403"}, {"author": "Jacy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793207433822&reply_comment_id=793208227232", "anchor": "fb-793207433822_793208227232", "service": "fb", "text": "→ ", "timestamp": "1465965603"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793207433822&reply_comment_id=793208446792", "anchor": "fb-793207433822_793208446792", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Except I do think it's not only plausible, but likely? Whenever non-meat food comes up I hear some people saying \"well, that means I wouldn't go\", and part of why I wanted to run this survey was to find out how many people felt that way.", "timestamp": "1465965912"}, {"author": "Jacy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793207433822&reply_comment_id=793208566552", "anchor": "fb-793207433822_793208566552", "service": "fb", "text": "→ ", "timestamp": "1465966131"}, {"author": "Alexander", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793207433822&reply_comment_id=793217673302", "anchor": "fb-793207433822_793217673302", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I was under the impression that when questions with 0 - 4 type scales are given, the bias tends to be towards picking the middle option or options (i.e. 1,2,3 on a 0-4 scale) because those feel like the 'default' answers in some way? As compared to other survey methods where the scale is less obvious or non-existent.
It's a while since I read that though, so I could be mis-remembering or have had a misleading source.", "timestamp": "1465970422"}, {"author": "Jacy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793207433822&reply_comment_id=793244299942", "anchor": "fb-793207433822_793244299942", "service": "fb", "text": "→ ", "timestamp": "1465995371"}, {"author": "Gawain", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793207433822&reply_comment_id=793247618292", "anchor": "fb-793207433822_793247618292", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jacy - As an example, I am a person who would definitely be less likely to attend an event that didn't serve any meat. I held this position before reading Jeff's survey.", "timestamp": "1465997797"}, {"author": "Gawain", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793207433822&reply_comment_id=793248132262", "anchor": "fb-793207433822_793248132262", "service": "fb", "text": "→ As to your question, \"Would it matter if the event had no food at all?\" in that case I would expect the price to be lower, and I would budget the savings towards bringing my own food, which could include meat, and therefore it would be fine.", "timestamp": "1465997922"}, {"author": "Jacy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793207433822&reply_comment_id=793248501522", "anchor": "fb-793207433822_793248501522", "service": "fb", "text": "→ ", "timestamp": "1465998232"}, {"author": "Jim", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793223142342", "anchor": "fb-793223142342", "service": "fb", "text": "I don't think people not going because of an announcement of vegetarian-only food is the main thing to worry about. The real issue is that people who aren't thinking about food will end up eating inadequately for the activity level, not realize that's happened, and end up with negative affect that they can't attribute to its source.", "timestamp": "1465973716"}, {"author": "Jacy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793223142342&reply_comment_id=793245976582", "anchor": "fb-793223142342_793245976582", "service": "fb", "text": "→ ", "timestamp": "1465996543"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793223142342&reply_comment_id=793247089352", "anchor": "fb-793223142342_793247089352", "service": "fb", "text": "→ If you're not used to a cuisine you won't immediately have a good sense of what to eat or how much, so there's some chance of missing things for a while until you figure it out. People used to vegetarian eating or knowledgeable about nutrition would probably be fine, but that's not everyone.", "timestamp": "1465997363"}, {"author": "Jacy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793223142342&reply_comment_id=793248351822", "anchor": "fb-793223142342_793248351822", "service": "fb", "text": "→ ", "timestamp": "1465998123"}, {"author": "Ryan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793223142342&reply_comment_id=793251874762", "anchor": "fb-793223142342_793251874762", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I need a pretty decent amount of fat and protein to fuel me through a dance weekend, or I'll crash and have to sit out a dance or two to refuel. Although it doesn't have to be that way, many vegetarian options have little fat and less protein than a meat-based meal would. If I didn't already know this about myself, it would be an unpleasant surprise. As it is, I'd just bring protein bars.", "timestamp": "1465999313"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793223142342&reply_comment_id=793261315842", "anchor": "fb-793223142342_793261315842", "service": "fb", "text": "→ One data point: vegetarian (mostly vegan) for 6 years, have pretty much never consciously thought about nutrition.
I guess which direction that points depends on what you think of my health.", "timestamp": "1465999725"}, {"author": "Jacy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793223142342&reply_comment_id=793261739992", "anchor": "fb-793223142342_793261739992", "service": "fb", "text": "→ ", "timestamp": "1466000030"}, {"author": "Julia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793223142342&reply_comment_id=793267623202", "anchor": "fb-793223142342_793267623202", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I think vegetation food probably does fine here unless people have additional restrictions like lactose intolerance. With vegan food the problem is that newcomers may stick to the familiar foods on the menu and end up with just carbs.", "timestamp": "1466003633"}, {"author": "Elizabeth", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793223142342&reply_comment_id=793267653142", "anchor": "fb-793223142342_793267653142", "service": "fb", "text": "→ It seems entirely possible that there's variation in how easy it is for people to be healthy/energetic on a vegan diet (or any other diet), and that some people have wider dietary affordances than others. I'd be very surprised if that wasn't true. Assuming that's true, of course the people who find it easiest would be overrepresented among vegans, so the fact that vegans find it easy to be vegan isn't very compelling to me.", "timestamp": "1466003659"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793223142342&reply_comment_id=793269689062", "anchor": "fb-793223142342_793269689062", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Julia, it seems like eggs are the most nutritionally relevant difference between \"vegan\" and \"vegetarian\" in this context... does that seem right? I'm having a hard time imagining event-attenders getting important nutrients from cheese, milk, butter, etc.
(Note: Not trying to argue for the feasibility of any particular event being vegan. Just interested in what you said.)", "timestamp": "1466004695"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793223142342&reply_comment_id=793269699042", "anchor": "fb-793223142342_793269699042", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @Elizabeth: though in this case we're talking about vegetarianism, which isn't as limiting.", "timestamp": "1466004712"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793223142342&reply_comment_id=793269988462", "anchor": "fb-793223142342_793269988462", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @David: dairy products are also high protein (lysine)", "timestamp": "1466004778"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793223142342&reply_comment_id=793271525382", "anchor": "fb-793223142342_793271525382", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Dairy has lysine, but doesn't seem like lysine is hard to replace with vegan foods that will also seem very normal to non-vegans (beans and nuts are also very high in lysine, it looks like?).
I guess maybe without eggs (and dairy), it's hard to get protein at breakfast with foods that seem \"normal\" to non-vegans. (But lots of people don't have much protein at breakfast anyway.)", "timestamp": "1466005403"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793223142342&reply_comment_id=793272588252", "anchor": "fb-793223142342_793272588252", "service": "fb", "text": "→ You certainly can do USA-normal foods without dairy, but you have more choices with it:
* Cereal with milk
* Macaroni and cheese
* Pizza
* Bagel with cream cheese
* Lasagna", "timestamp": "1466005654"}, {"author": "Jacy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793223142342&reply_comment_id=793272847732", "anchor": "fb-793223142342_793272847732", "service": "fb", "text": "→ ", "timestamp": "1466005860"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793223142342&reply_comment_id=793272852722", "anchor": "fb-793223142342_793272852722", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Certainly more choices. (Including choices that will be preferred by some people.) Not disagreeing with that.
Thinking about Julia's comment \"With vegan food the problem is that newcomers may stick to the familiar foods on the menu and end up with just carbs.\"
I'm not sure that seems right.", "timestamp": "1466005870"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793223142342&reply_comment_id=793272917592", "anchor": "fb-793223142342_793272917592", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I guess there's a tradeoff: Many of my favorite vegan foods will indeed seem weird to non-vegans. But it's also not hard (I think) to be good-tasting and nutritionally fine without any weird-seeming foods.", "timestamp": "1466005931"}, {"author": "Allison", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793223142342&reply_comment_id=793311684902", "anchor": "fb-793223142342_793311684902", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I think Julia's point is a real thing; how many people have you taken to a veg restaurant for the first time and they ordered the black bean burger? Absent the black bean burger as an option, might they choose to eat something familiar rather than something with lysine in it? Yeah, I think so, particularly in a buffet style setting. (I have also eaten a lot of meals that were all carbs from buffets that weren't trying to be veg friendly; that's just what the foods tend to be that are both totally normal and always veg, so if people are looking to avoid novel foods at a veg buffet, that's what they'll eat.)", "timestamp": "1466007050"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793223142342&reply_comment_id=793312722822", "anchor": "fb-793223142342_793312722822", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Maybe my mistake is that I'm thinking of too many things as normal-seeming. For example, I'm including most non-American cuisines that I think of Americans like me as regularly experiencing (especially good for vegan normal-seeming food: Middle Eastern, Chinese, Indian, Mexican, ...).", "timestamp": "1466007257"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793223142342&reply_comment_id=793312852562", "anchor": "fb-793223142342_793312852562", "service": "fb", "text": "→ But also, Allison, those restaurants where a black bean burger is the only normal-seeming option are not at all optimizing for normal-seeming food. (That's part of why I like them.) I'm imagining an event optimizing for nutritional food that seems normal to non-vegans.", "timestamp": "1466007353"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793223142342&reply_comment_id=793313241782", "anchor": "fb-793223142342_793313241782", "service": "fb", "text": "→ For example: one day at PyCon a couple weeks ago (the only multi-day event I've attended this year with food) the lunch was Mexican. It wasn't vegan, but the vegan options were good. I think by expanding on the vegan options and leaving out the meat/cheese you end up with a meal where non-vegans don't avoid the protein.", "timestamp": "1466007608"}, {"author": "Alex", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793223142342&reply_comment_id=793313271722", "anchor": "fb-793223142342_793313271722", "service": "fb", "text": "→ For those worried about carb focus or otherwise nutrition content of the meal affecting the event, it could be smart to optimize catering for energy and engagement levels post meal. However, this doesn't seem a vegetarian vs meat issue since most catering I've seen does not optimize for nutrition or post meal energy levels in any noticeable way, regardless of dietary restrictions being accounted for (and the few times it was noticeable, the vegetarian / gluten free options tended to be \"better\" for energy levels).", "timestamp": "1466007652"}, {"author": "Elizabeth", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793223142342&reply_comment_id=793313765732", "anchor": "fb-793223142342_793313765732", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff fair point, although lactose intolerance is not that uncommon. I guess it bugs me that veg*nism is getting privileged relative to other food restrictions; what I'd really like to see is a lot more variety and the ability to mix and match so that organizers don't have to choose between taking butter away from everyone and rendering dishes unavailable to people with medical or moral problems with dairy.", "timestamp": "1466008012"}, {"author": "Julia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793223142342&reply_comment_id=793315003252", "anchor": "fb-793223142342_793315003252", "service": "fb", "text": "→ David Chudzicki, yes, I think cheese is a more common way than eggs for vegetarians to get protein, particularly with food for large groups (cheese pizza, vegetarian lasagna, subs with sliced cheese and vegetables). Certainly it was my main protein source as a vegetarian, though maybe that means I'm biased.", "timestamp": "1466008773"}, {"author": "Jacy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793223142342&reply_comment_id=793316505242", "anchor": "fb-793223142342_793316505242", "service": "fb", "text": "→ ", "timestamp": "1466009361"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793223142342&reply_comment_id=793319673892", "anchor": "fb-793223142342_793319673892", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Interesting. I've always (even before being vegan) thought of cheese as mostly a not-very-nutritional \"junk food\". I guess I should (as the cool kids say) \"update\" now.", "timestamp": "1466010895"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793223142342&reply_comment_id=793319843552", "anchor": "fb-793223142342_793319843552", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Whereas I have cheese classified more like tofu, as a way to make something (milk, soy) vaguely meat like and substantial.", "timestamp": "1466010998"}, {"author": "Miranda", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793223142342&reply_comment_id=793320716802", "anchor": "fb-793223142342_793320716802", "service": "fb", "text": "→ David Chudzicki I currently get like 25% of my calories from cheese. I'm not fully vegetarian but I do try to keep my meat intake minimal, and I try to eat low carb, which means eating high-fat because it's got to go somewhere. I don't think of it as having a lot of micronutrients or anything, but for someone who isn't trying to avoid fat it does well on macronutrients.", "timestamp": "1466011366"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793223142342&reply_comment_id=793321405422", "anchor": "fb-793223142342_793321405422", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Maybe this varies by person and comes down to how much you need to avoid fat? Cheese has a really low protein/fat ratio, right? So not such a good protein source if you already have more fat than you want to, but good if fat is no problem?", "timestamp": "1466011835"}, {"author": "Miranda", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793223142342&reply_comment_id=793322278672", "anchor": "fb-793223142342_793322278672", "service": "fb", "text": "→ A 28-g piece of cheese has 9g of fat for 7g of protein (and negligible carbs), whereas an egg has 5g of fat for 6g of protein (and negligible carbs). So neither's good if someone is really trying to avoid fat, but eggs are slightly better. My goal is 50% of calories from fat, so both are fine, and something like rice with beans is bad.", "timestamp": "1466012351"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793223142342&reply_comment_id=793323131962", "anchor": "fb-793223142342_793323131962", "service": "fb", "text": "→ And an ounce of 80% lean ground beef is 5g fat and 7.5g protein. (Though you can buy both leaner and fattier ratios, and you can optionally drain the beef after cooking.)", "timestamp": "1466012801"}, {"author": "Avi", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793223142342&reply_comment_id=793323176872", "anchor": "fb-793223142342_793323176872", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Cheese is also much higher in saturated fat compared to eggs or meat.", "timestamp": "1466012835"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793223142342&reply_comment_id=793323486252", "anchor": "fb-793223142342_793323486252", "service": "fb", "text": "→ The fat in eggs is 28% saturated, in beef 38%, and in cheese 64%.", "timestamp": "1466013068"}, {"author": "Christian", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793329100002", "anchor": "fb-793329100002", "service": "fb", "text": "When going to a dance event I care more about foot quality than I care about whether or not it contains meat.
Don't advertise an event as \"no meat\" but as: \"We don't have standard food but delicious vegan foot.
Despite personally eating meat I think I would be more likely to go an event that advertises itself as providing vegan-food than that adverstises itself as providing vegatarian-food.", "timestamp": "1466015495"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793329100002&reply_comment_id=793329204792", "anchor": "fb-793329100002_793329204792", "service": "fb", "text": "→ \"advertises itself as providing vegan-food than that advertises itself as providing vegatarian-food\"
Could you expand on why?", "timestamp": "1466015612"}, {"author": "Christian", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793329100002&reply_comment_id=793329773652", "anchor": "fb-793329100002_793329773652", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I'm from Berlin and the events that advertise themselves as providing vegan food generally care about providing healthy quality food.
Most events treat food as: \"Well, people are here and we have to give them something to eat.\" People who make a decision to provide vegan food on the other hand usually do care about food and thus provide better food.", "timestamp": "1466016039"}, {"author": "Christian", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793329100002&reply_comment_id=793330996202", "anchor": "fb-793329100002_793330996202", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Vegetarian on the other hand just singles \"there will be no meat\" but doesn't signal a commitment to providing good food.
Vegan's who serve vegan food at events generally want that the attendies think highly of vegan food and thus treat food differently.", "timestamp": "1466016723"}, {"author": "Stephen", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/793123601822?comment_id=793329100002&reply_comment_id=793354743612", "anchor": "fb-793329100002_793354743612", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I agree with you Christian. To me, the quality of the food is far more important than whether it is veg/vegan. Omnivorous, I'm perfectly happy eating veg/vegan if the food tastes good and I feel satisfied. A dance weekend is more appealing if they advertise tasty food or if I have anecdotal evidence of this (recommendations from friends). I have yet to go to a camp that is strictly vegetarian/vegan, but I am not opposed to the idea.
From my experience, Pinewoods Dance Camp does a good job catering to all groups. It usually serves a non veg/vegan main dish with special diets options, but does serve a number of vegetarian meals. The cooks are keenly aware of the protein in all the meals and work hard to keep everyone full and energized.
In my mind, any advertisement about the food at a dance weekend implies that the organizers have given that special attention and I will enjoy the meals more.", "timestamp": "1466022663"}]}