{"items": [{"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831947787842", "anchor": "fb-831947787842", "service": "fb", "text": "Someone had opined that the sliding scale would not work so well for regular dances as it does at weekends. I think the BIDA situation seems to demonstrate that you can have a weekly dance with a sliding scale. How often do you get people who pay more than the average cost of a dance, and does the per-person admission each night usually come out close to the average?", "timestamp": "1481751041"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831947787842&reply_comment_id=831949823762", "anchor": "fb-831947787842_831949823762", "service": "fb", "text": "→ \" How often do you get people who pay more than the average cost of a dance, and does the per-person admission each night usually come out close to the average?\"

We don't track that, sorry! Tracking contribution size would really slow down the door volunteers.

From working the door it feels like most people pay $5 or $10.", "timestamp": "1481751675"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831947787842&reply_comment_id=831950043322", "anchor": "fb-831947787842_831950043322", "service": "fb", "text": "→ It seems like the sliding scale would work provided you have enough people willing to pay more than the average for each dance. And definitely would not work if everyone took advantage of it by paying the lowest possible.", "timestamp": "1481751815"}, {"author": "Yoyo", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831947787842&reply_comment_id=831952293812", "anchor": "fb-831947787842_831952293812", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I think sliding scale works well because you essentially are asking people to put a value on this, and the value is probably at least as high as the regular door price.", "timestamp": "1481752067"}, {"author": "Hollis", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831947787842&reply_comment_id=831952977442", "anchor": "fb-831947787842_831952977442", "service": "fb", "text": "→ The way we dealt with this at Epic Skill Swap was to set the minimum end of the sliding scale so it wasn't very far below the break even point, and then set the scale so the midpoint was above break even.", "timestamp": "1481752619"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831947787842&reply_comment_id=831961580202", "anchor": "fb-831947787842_831961580202", "service": "fb", "text": "→ That is a great idea Hollis!", "timestamp": "1481755930"}, {"author": "Peter", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831947787842&reply_comment_id=831987089082", "anchor": "fb-831947787842_831987089082", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Luke, doesn't MRCC track payment amounts? Do or Sophia have readily-accessible data on that?
Jeff Kaufman, I wonder how much of the bimodal distribution (either $5 or $10) is caused by US currency denominations. There are non-linear progressions in how much people are willing to contribute, often based on the fact that they're getting $x in change at this moment.
At a dance charging $8, a few people stuffed their $2 change (since most folks pay with a ten) into a donations bin. When asked \"would you like your change, or prefer to donate it to the performers?\" a significantly larger share did so. (I hope I wasn't pushy or judgy!) I think if the admission price were raised to $9, we might see similar frequency, with a $1 donation instead. Very, very rarely did someone pull out other dollar bills to donate.
(I did note that one place I've gotten haircuts price them so that a 20% tip brings the grand total up to a nice, round, bill-denomination amount. Made me think that the next time they raise their base price, I bet stylists start getting smaller tips).", "timestamp": "1481764026"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831947787842&reply_comment_id=831987353552", "anchor": "fb-831947787842_831987353552", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @Hollis: \"The way we dealt with this at Epic Skill Swap was to set the minimum end of the sliding scale so it wasn't very far below the break even point, and then set the scale so the midpoint was above break even.\"

In our case we'd rather not raise the minimum if we can avoid it, because we want to keep the dance financially accessible. But this does mean that our break even point ($8) is slightly below the midpoint of our range ($5-$12) instead of near the bottom of it.", "timestamp": "1481764184"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831947787842&reply_comment_id=831987677902", "anchor": "fb-831947787842_831987677902", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @Luke: \"I wonder how much of the bimodal distribution (either $5 or $10) is caused by US currency denominations.\"

I think a lot. The easiest way to raise our average contribution without being too demanding would probably be to raise our lower limit to like $5.25 (or $6, really) which would push many people on the margin to go \"whatever, here's $10\"", "timestamp": "1481764439"}, {"author": "Hollis", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831947787842&reply_comment_id=831987687882", "anchor": "fb-831947787842_831987687882", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Yep! And I think that appropriately reflects the difference in frequency, scope, and financial risk exposure for a monthly dance vs. an annual residential weekend, and it seems likely that both groups' priorities have developed to address their niches.", "timestamp": "1481764448"}, {"author": "Peter", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831947787842&reply_comment_id=832219553222", "anchor": "fb-831947787842_832219553222", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Gretchen Caverly Yes! getting a clear idea of what additional payments mean can be helpful. I really appreciated YDW's communication on this. In the year that I could afford to pay more, they accepted fully varying amounts, and also some suggested levels -- $x is below our cost per person, $y is break-even, $z covers your cost plus one person who's paying x, and $w covers TWO people who pay $x.
That still gives the flexibility to pay any amount, and to chip in a couple of extra bucks, or a bunch more, while giving enough information to be able to make informed decisions.
And when my income later halved, I felt like I could make a responsible decision about whether I could really afford to go, and at what level.
Frankly, even if just a handful of folks opted to subsidize by paying more, and as long as nobody is so turned off by the transparency that they pay less, then it seems like a net-win.", "timestamp": "1481858336"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831958805762", "anchor": "fb-831958805762", "service": "fb", "text": "How much does variation in pay influence the music quality? (For a single dance, in the short run. Long run changes in musician supply are more complicated.)", "timestamp": "1481755520"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831958805762&reply_comment_id=831963032292", "anchor": "fb-831958805762_831963032292", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Long run I think is more important, and does get your higher quality, because people can spend more of their time on it and practice is useful.", "timestamp": "1481756481"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831958805762&reply_comment_id=831963391572", "anchor": "fb-831958805762_831963391572", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Short run mostly pay means there are some people you can't book, but most people are willing to come play/call BIDA for $100.", "timestamp": "1481756554"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831958805762&reply_comment_id=831963561232", "anchor": "fb-831958805762_831963561232", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Though I'm not actually sure at all that professionalization of contra performers is good for the community long term.", "timestamp": "1481756630"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831958805762&reply_comment_id=831963840672", "anchor": "fb-831958805762_831963840672", "service": "fb", "text": "→ (I think you get higher quality music and calling, but you also get more of a stage/hall division.)", "timestamp": "1481756705"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831958805762&reply_comment_id=831964155042", "anchor": "fb-831958805762_831964155042", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I would like to see a discussion on the professionalization of dance musicians. It seems to me that there are a lot more musicians today whose income relies on gigs as opposed to those who have day jobs and play music as a hobby. Dance economics is tied to this of course.", "timestamp": "1481756999"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831958805762&reply_comment_id=831964189972", "anchor": "fb-831958805762_831964189972", "service": "fb", "text": "→ \"not actually sure at all that professionalization of contra performers is good for the community long term\" <== does that lead to uncertainty about whether paying musicians better is actually a good thing?", "timestamp": "1481757010"}, {"author": "Hollis", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831958805762&reply_comment_id=831964669012", "anchor": "fb-831958805762_831964669012", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I feel like professionalization is a continuum, not a binary, for what it's worth.", "timestamp": "1481757354"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831958805762&reply_comment_id=831976999302", "anchor": "fb-831958805762_831976999302", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @David: \"does that lead to uncertainty about whether paying musicians better is actually a good thing?\"

yes", "timestamp": "1481760643"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831958805762&reply_comment_id=832091185472", "anchor": "fb-831958805762_832091185472", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Could you explain this uncertainty? Does it have something to do with the fact that if contra musicians are mostly professionals that it would raise the admission prices of contra dances substantially?", "timestamp": "1481818545"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831958805762&reply_comment_id=832094543742", "anchor": "fb-831958805762_832094543742", "service": "fb", "text": "→ \"Could you explain this uncertainty?\"

The main factor in favor of professionalization is that you generally get better music and calling from people who do this full time, and if someone is really good at this then if they do it professionally more people can benefit.

Some factors that push the other way:

* My favorite communities have been ones where the barrier between dancing on the floor and playing/calling on stage are minimal.

* I think it's generally good to have a wide range of people playing and calling

* You can have much cheaper dances with people who play as a hobby in their spare time", "timestamp": "1481819481"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831958805762&reply_comment_id=832094823182", "anchor": "fb-831958805762_832094823182", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Oh so that is the barrier you were speaking of earlier. I completely agree.", "timestamp": "1481819721"}, {"author": "Elizabeth", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831958805762&reply_comment_id=832095686452", "anchor": "fb-831958805762_832095686452", "service": "fb", "text": "→ How does music and calling quality affect enjoyment? My naive non- dancer prediction is that caller quality matters a lot, and music quality... doesn't plateu, exactly, but it takes training on the dancers' part to derive extra enjoyment past a certain quality. Or you're appreciating them as musicians but it adds nothing to the dancing.", "timestamp": "1481820170"}, {"author": "Kitty", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831958805762&reply_comment_id=832098505802", "anchor": "fb-831958805762_832098505802", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I see it as unfair to the musicians to keep them from making a living doing something they love (if they so choose) just to keep dances \"cheep\". I think there's room for professionalization of musicians and keeping dances reasonably priced.", "timestamp": "1481821487"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831958805762&reply_comment_id=832113580592", "anchor": "fb-831958805762_832113580592", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @Elizabeth: \"My naive non- dancer prediction is that caller quality matters a lot, and music quality... doesn't plateu, exactly, but it takes training on the dancers' part to derive extra enjoyment past a certain quality.\"

My experience is that band quality doesn't plateau even for relatively new dancers. The best bands are generally able to really get the hall excited, energized, and get people losing themselves in the dancing. The best bands also tend to draw larger crowds, pulling in people who used to dance frequently or people who are trying to decide between multiple things they might enjoy doing that evening.", "timestamp": "1481824747"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831958805762&reply_comment_id=832114748252", "anchor": "fb-831958805762_832114748252", "service": "fb", "text": "→ \"I see it as unfair to the musicians to keep them from making a living doing something they love\"

Do you consider it unfair to people who play for fun and aren't in it for the money when a few professionals take all the gigs?

(Fairness to the performers isn't the main way I look at this.)", "timestamp": "1481825112"}, {"author": "Hollis", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831958805762&reply_comment_id=832115212322", "anchor": "fb-831958805762_832115212322", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman It's sounds like you're positing the existence of a cadre of musicians who play for fun and therefore would prefer not to be paid and then implying that these people cannot get gigs because of their desire not to be paid. Is there evidence that this population exists or that, if it exists, it can't be served simply by booking a gig and then telling the organizers \"we prefer not to be paid tonight\"?

Or are you suggesting that there are people who are not sufficiently skillful to be able to get gigs on their merits (due to the alleged oversupply of professional-caliber musicians) who would love to be playing more gigs but can't because people only hire professionals, and that these people would have more opportunities if we removed the financial incentive to reach professional skill levels because the professional-skill musicians would drop out of the labor market?", "timestamp": "1481825323"}, {"author": "Sophia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831958805762&reply_comment_id=832115576592", "anchor": "fb-831958805762_832115576592", "service": "fb", "text": "→ My perception is that there is an under-supply of professional-caliber performers at the dance event level, which you can see in the competitive booking behavior of organizers. Not sure how exactly that interfaces with regular weekly dances, though.", "timestamp": "1481825632"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831958805762&reply_comment_id=832118640452", "anchor": "fb-831958805762_832118640452", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @Hollis: \"Or are you suggesting that there are people who are not sufficiently skillful to be able to get gigs on their merits (due to the alleged oversupply of professional-caliber musicians) who would love to be playing more gigs but can't because people only hire professionals, and that these people would have more opportunities if we removed the financial incentive to reach professional skill levels?\"

That's closer to the phenomenon I'm describing, but that's not how I think about it. There's a continuum of musicians, from people who play in their spare time for fun to people who play professionally. At one end we have people who are not primarily concerned with compensation, though like most people they tend to prefer more to less, and are playing primarily because they enjoy playing, they like helping make the dance happy, they value this specific dance community etc. At this end money mostly serves as an indication of appreciation, and helps make it easier to play dances by covering expenses somewhat.

At the other end we have people where this is their primary employment. They need to be making enough money to live on, and they can't afford to take dances that don't pay well enough. They have lots of things they care about that they would like to be considering in what gigs to take, but if the money doesn't work out then they're just not able to do the gig. At this end money is critical, because it's what enables the performer to do dances instead of other forms of employment.

These two ends of the range I've been calling people who play for fun, vs people who play professionally. A professional contra musician might play ~100 nights of dancing a year, while someone playing for fun might play ~5. This means that for each person who is good enough to go pro and decides to do that, there are about 20 people who aren't able to play their for-fun gigs anymore.

(As I said, fairness to performers isn't the main way I look at this, so \"does/should contra pay well enough to do this professionally?\" or \"are pros shutting out amateurs?\" aren't actually the main things I'm thinking about in \"is professionalization a good thing\".)", "timestamp": "1481826665"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831958805762&reply_comment_id=832118974782", "anchor": "fb-831958805762_832118974782", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @Sophia: \"My perception is that there is an under-supply of professional-caliber performers at the dance event level, which you can see in the competitive booking behavior of organizers. Not sure how exactly that interfaces with regular weekly dances, though.\"

If all contra dance performers got 5x better, I think we'd see a similar level of competitive booking. Organizers generally want to book the best bands/callers they can, and aren't simply scrambling to snag one of a small number of minimally competent bands/callers.

Or, from another angle, my understanding is that the mainstream music world is both generally higher-talent than the contra world and, if anything, more competitive.", "timestamp": "1481826947"}, {"author": "Sophia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831958805762&reply_comment_id=832119224282", "anchor": "fb-831958805762_832119224282", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman I guess what I'm suggesting is not a hypothetical where performers get 5x better, but rather where there are 5x the number of, say, Free-Raisins-caliber bands. I think you'd see things like much shorter timeframes for booking and less willingness to pay for travel or guests.", "timestamp": "1481827173"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831958805762&reply_comment_id=832119917892", "anchor": "fb-831958805762_832119917892", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @Sophia: That makes sense, but I also don't really see how that would happen. Like, if contra became better paying, and so was more attractive for people who wanted to do this professionally, I would expect to see some new bands who are even better than our current top bands. And I wouldn't expect dance organizers to say \"we were ok with bands of level X the last few years, so now that this influx of skilled musicians has raised the bar we'll just keep booking bands at level X\".", "timestamp": "1481827542"}, {"author": "Elizabeth", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831958805762&reply_comment_id=832119992742", "anchor": "fb-831958805762_832119992742", "service": "fb", "text": "→ It seems like you can substitute planning ahead for money at any level of quality, and contra organizers are generally willing to make that trade.", "timestamp": "1481827600"}, {"author": "Sophia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831958805762&reply_comment_id=832120476772", "anchor": "fb-831958805762_832120476772", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Yeah perhaps the whole structure would just shift upward. The discussion is now getting far afield from the original point, but it does seem to me that there's more demand from dance weekends/events than there are professional-level musicians to meet it, and that's interesting to me.", "timestamp": "1481827848"}, {"author": "Sophia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831958805762&reply_comment_id=832120746232", "anchor": "fb-831958805762_832120746232", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Elizabeth not totally sure I'm properly parsing what you're saying, so rephrasing to make sure I understand: you're saying that organizers that can't afford to pay performers much will instead just try to book them farther in advance than organizers who can pay more?", "timestamp": "1481827953"}, {"author": "Sophia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831958805762&reply_comment_id=832121230262", "anchor": "fb-831958805762_832121230262", "service": "fb", "text": "→ (That seems like something one could potentially do some interesting data-driven analysis on, if you could get the data.)", "timestamp": "1481828288"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831958805762&reply_comment_id=832121449822", "anchor": "fb-831958805762_832121449822", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @Sophia: What sort of data-driven analysis? It's not generally public how far out people are booked, or how much they're paid.", "timestamp": "1481828445"}, {"author": "Sophia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831958805762&reply_comment_id=832121609502", "anchor": "fb-831958805762_832121609502", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Right, that's why I say \"if you could get the data.\" :)", "timestamp": "1481828616"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831958805762&reply_comment_id=832121664392", "anchor": "fb-831958805762_832121664392", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Sorry, being dense", "timestamp": "1481828646"}, {"author": "Sophia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831958805762&reply_comment_id=832121799122", "anchor": "fb-831958805762_832121799122", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff I guess you could do it based on one band/musician's experience, which would be interesting in and of itself though not necessarily representative.", "timestamp": "1481828693"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831958805762&reply_comment_id=832126015672", "anchor": "fb-831958805762_832126015672", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Y'know, this whole discussion is rather interesting to me because it kind of represents a paradigm shift in how we see contra dance musicians. I haven't been dancing as long enough as others, but I've been dancing long enough (about 16 years) to notice the level of support dancers give to bands based on their national name recognition. It has been my perception (and I could be wrong about this) that most of the time musicians were local musicians that were good but not whiz-bang-great, but dancers came out simply because they were dancing and the music was live. Sure there was an occasional touring band peppered in (mainly Swallowtail and Wild Asparagus) and those did represent a bump in attendance - and those bands being made up of pros demanded more and admission prices just for those dances were raised to compensate. But now we have an influx of touring bands with professional musicians which get much of the support and those local musicians that once got support from dance communities are no longer supported as much. I often see when a general local band (or even an open band) plays, attendance is nowhere near as high as when the touring bands come in. So it seems to me that these days dancers really demand THE BEST in musicianship where years ago they loved all musicians, because they were part of their community, and THE BEST was an occasional special treat that they knew came around once or twice per year like clockwork.", "timestamp": "1481829701"}, {"author": "Sophia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831958805762&reply_comment_id=832127477742", "anchor": "fb-831958805762_832127477742", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Perry this is me talking with no real knowledge, so take with appropriate large portion of salt, but I wonder if there's some kind of interaction happening with a rise in special dance events where people might be more likely to expect a professional-level band? (I don't know the actual history of dance events vs weekly/regular dances, so this could be completely backwards.)", "timestamp": "1481830001"}, {"author": "Elizabeth", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831958805762&reply_comment_id=832127507682", "anchor": "fb-831958805762_832127507682", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Sophia roughly, although it's not necessarily a matter of \"can't.\". Flexibility costs money, and if you don't need the flexibility there's no reason to pay for it.", "timestamp": "1481830063"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831958805762&reply_comment_id=832127592512", "anchor": "fb-831958805762_832127592512", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Sophia - I think you hit the nail right on the head.", "timestamp": "1481830155"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831958805762&reply_comment_id=832128291112", "anchor": "fb-831958805762_832128291112", "service": "fb", "text": "→ The current environment feels pretty similar (to me) to how it did in 2006 when I started paying attention. Talking to long-time dance organizers (or callers/musicians, but especially organizers) would probably be helpful for figuring out if this is a change, and what has changed?", "timestamp": "1481830288"}, {"author": "Sophia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831958805762&reply_comment_id=832130905872", "anchor": "fb-831958805762_832130905872", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Elizabeth Got it! That is an interesting point. Would be really interesting to see some data.", "timestamp": "1481830770"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1481758732"}, {"author": "David", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831968596142&reply_comment_id=831978441412", "anchor": "fb-831968596142_831978441412", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Last question first: In my experience, only a *non*-significant number of dancers opt to contribute barter in lieu of cash.", "timestamp": "1481761438"}, {"author": "David", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831968596142&reply_comment_id=831978576142", "anchor": "fb-831968596142_831978576142", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Second-to-last question: Probably, at least some of the time, the caller, band, and whoever else gets paid have to be prepared to think open-mindedly, if not generously, about the forms and amounts of reward they receive.", "timestamp": "1481761609"}, {"author": "David", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831968596142&reply_comment_id=831980152982", "anchor": "fb-831968596142_831980152982", "service": "fb", "text": "→ What and who does the encouraging of barter serve? Some possible answers: (1) It may serve people for whom, for whatever reason, the exchange of cash constitutes a deterrent to participation. (2) It may serve organizers and paid workers (e.g. callers, musicians) who like to consider themselves magnanimous and open-minded. (3) It may serve everyone who enjoys creativity, considering that conceiving, creating, and sharing barter can be far more creative than simply handing over cash. (4) It may serve everyone by promoting a sense of curiosity and fun ... \"who might bring what this time\"?", "timestamp": "1481762209"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1481762210"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1481762254"}, {"author": "David", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831968596142&reply_comment_id=831981420442", "anchor": "fb-831968596142_831981420442", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Examples of barter which have shown up in my fiddle case: Loaves of bread for the musicians; snacks for the band (sometimes so much that the musicians shared with the dancers); wood carvings; hand-dipped candles; vegetables and fruits; a live chicken which I ate the next day; on several occasions, liters of wine; on one occasion, a fifth of single-malt scotch; herbaceous intoxicants; a giant bottle of ibuprofen; and, on many occasions, hugely welcomed help with set up and clean up.", "timestamp": "1481762568"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831968596142&reply_comment_id=831981535212", "anchor": "fb-831968596142_831981535212", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Has anyone combined accepting barter with having door volunteers? If so, what do you tell the volunteers about how to decide what to accept? Is it \"accept anything offered as barter\" or \"accept things that are plausibly worth about as much as admission\" or something else?", "timestamp": "1481762634"}, {"author": "David", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831968596142&reply_comment_id=831982049182", "anchor": "fb-831968596142_831982049182", "service": "fb", "text": "→ At my dance, admission consists of self determined, free will contributions. When I'm fortunate enough to have one, the \"door volunteer\" welcomes people and answers questions but doesn't deal with admission other than to explain the terms \"self determined\", \"free will\", and \"barter\", concepts with which too few in our society are familiar.", "timestamp": "1481763011"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1481763449"}, {"author": "David", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831968596142&reply_comment_id=831987298662", "anchor": "fb-831968596142_831987298662", "service": "fb", "text": "→ At the John C. Campbell Folk School, it's a basket, it's on the edge of the stage, and similar announcements are made. I have the impression that it works.", "timestamp": "1481764159"}, {"author": "Julie", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831968596142&reply_comment_id=832161694172", "anchor": "fb-831968596142_832161694172", "service": "fb", "text": "→ David, when we were starting BIDA, your dance was a big inspiration to me. Both the barter/ pay-as-you-will system (which ended up as our sliding scale) and your sit-in-friendly policies (which we still have, and have a quarterly open band).", "timestamp": "1481841398"}, {"author": "David", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831968596142&reply_comment_id=832187133192", "anchor": "fb-831968596142_832187133192", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Julie, thank you so much for this. I needed it.", "timestamp": "1481848545"}, {"author": "Gianna", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831968596142&reply_comment_id=832648728152", "anchor": "fb-831968596142_832648728152", "service": "fb", "text": "→ The open band is my favorite part of BIDA and one of the only ways I can sort of manage to regularly play in groups these days. So cool to hear that some of the inspiration for it came from David's dance.", "timestamp": "1482022307"}, {"author": "Michelle", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831987009242", "anchor": "fb-831987009242", "service": "fb", "text": "Such an interesting topic. Thanks for sharing! Reatha Whitcomb Reilly Belton Eleanor Held check this out :)", "timestamp": "1481763933"}, {"author": "Warren", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=831987119022", "anchor": "fb-831987119022", "service": "fb", "text": "As many of my neighbors say \"You do the best with what you got.\" So, the challenge is how much control do you have over what you got. For local dances, the challenge is getting more folks to attend, having them have a good first dance experience, and retain a better percentage of first-timers. More dancers mean a lower admission price. Contradancing will more than likely stay in the 'folk' realm rather than take on the trappings of the business/industrial model so compensation for musicians/callers/sound technicians should take into account the local dance community's 'ability to pay'. The local dance organizers have to take into account their community member's 'ability to pay'. If dancers insist on having live music at all their local dance events than economic sacrifices will have to be made.", "timestamp": "1481764056"}, {"author": "Phillip", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=832001679842", "anchor": "fb-832001679842", "service": "fb", "text": "My behavior is is almost always to pay with a $20 and get $10 back. Being in my prime earning years I feel as though I should do at least that. I also consider that other than special events it's the most I pay for a contra. Seeing these numbers makes me consider more, but I would be happier with a 501c3 donation instead 1) deductible and 2 I don't stand out in what I pay at the door.", "timestamp": "1481769256"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=832001679842&reply_comment_id=832001979242", "anchor": "fb-832001679842_832001979242", "service": "fb", "text": "→ \"happier with a 501c3 donation instead\"

Unfortunately BIDA isn't a 501c3 (yet). We're registered as a nonprofit with MA, but we haven't gone through the process for the IRS to recognize us as deserving of tax-exempt status.", "timestamp": "1481769420"}, {"author": "Peter", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=832001679842&reply_comment_id=832008840492", "anchor": "fb-832001679842_832008840492", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman Does being an affiliate of CDSS confer 501(c)3 status?", "timestamp": "1481771609"}, {"author": "Phillip", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=832001679842&reply_comment_id=832008935302", "anchor": "fb-832001679842_832008935302", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman What is blocking obtaining the status?", "timestamp": "1481771687"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=832001679842&reply_comment_id=832009803562", "anchor": "fb-832001679842_832009803562", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @Phillip: someone putting in the time to do the paperwork and talk to they IRS", "timestamp": "1481772002"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=832001679842&reply_comment_id=832009853462", "anchor": "fb-832001679842_832009853462", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @Peter: Yes, I think there's a CDSS 501c3 option", "timestamp": "1481772027"}, {"author": "Ian", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=832001679842&reply_comment_id=832021375372", "anchor": "fb-832001679842_832021375372", "service": "fb", "text": "→ As someone who has just gone through this with Youth Traditional Song Weekend, CDSS affiliates can register as a 501(c)3 under CDSS auspices, but it's not automatic\u2014it takes a decent amount of organizational work and some yearly fees, and also carries legal obligations.", "timestamp": "1481775030"}, {"author": "Peter", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=832001679842&reply_comment_id=832035042982", "anchor": "fb-832001679842_832035042982", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Phillip In addition to the time and paperwork, there are also fees -- looks like the IRS, for their new, expedited, EZ form for small not-for-profits charges $400, and MA registration is $100 initially, then about $35/yr thereafter. And there are tax filing requirements each year -- do those also require listing the SSN of every person to whom any funds are distributed? (i.e. every performer, sound person, and snack purchaser).", "timestamp": "1481782003"}, {"author": "Hollis", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=832001679842&reply_comment_id=832048655702", "anchor": "fb-832001679842_832048655702", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Peter Typically it requires listing SSNs for anyone who receives more than $600 from the organization in any calendar year. There are a non-trivial number of places I've done music/teaching work for that seem to put their compensation at $599 for musicians, I guess on the assumption that a lot of performers must not report their income on their taxes (I do, so it's never mattered for me).", "timestamp": "1481787266"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=832001679842&reply_comment_id=832071000922", "anchor": "fb-832001679842_832071000922", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @Hollis: any dance org is already required to file 1099s for people they pay over $600, regardless of whether they become a 501c3", "timestamp": "1481806620"}, {"author": "Phillip", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=832001679842&reply_comment_id=832073715482", "anchor": "fb-832001679842_832073715482", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Hollis I suspect it is fear of paperwork also.", "timestamp": "1481809151"}, {"author": "Hollis", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=832001679842&reply_comment_id=832087303252", "anchor": "fb-832001679842_832087303252", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff, makes sense. I couldn't remember whether the filing requirement attached to the nonprofit status or just to the fact of hiring people for IC work.", "timestamp": "1481816318"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1481853655"}, {"author": "Phillip", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=832001974252", "anchor": "fb-832001974252", "service": "fb", "text": "I have often told people that contra is almost stealing $10 for three hours of live music is cheap, and the level of musicianship is ridiculous. Personally I would love to see more people able to make their living doing contra. It pains me to see super talented people make so much less than typical artists in other musical genres.", "timestamp": "1481769419"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=832001974252&reply_comment_id=832088959932", "anchor": "fb-832001974252_832088959932", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Contra dancing would be a LOT more expensive if all the performers would be professionals, and would also shut out those performers who love to play for dances but are not professional musicians.", "timestamp": "1481817470"}, {"author": "Sophia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=832001974252&reply_comment_id=832117862012", "anchor": "fb-832001974252_832117862012", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I'm not sure whether professional contra musicians make less than typical artists in other musical genres. It's certainly true that there's a fairly low ceiling to the amount you can make as a contra musician (we don't have platinum-record-level earnings for our musicians), but there's also a pretty definite floor since most dances are paid. My friends who are e.g. indie rock musicians play a heck of a lot of free shows or shows where they're expected to bring in their own audience and those expectations don't exist in the contra world.", "timestamp": "1481826503"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=832001974252&reply_comment_id=832119408912", "anchor": "fb-832001974252_832119408912", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @Sophia: That mostly seems right to me, though the \"ceiling\" bit is distorted by some contra performers moving into \"higher ceiling\" genres. Like Rhiannon Giddens (Carolina Chocolate Drops) or Thomas Bartlett (Doveman).", "timestamp": "1481827235"}, {"author": "Brendan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=832001974252&reply_comment_id=832171309902", "anchor": "fb-832001974252_832171309902", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I agree with Sophia that, relative to other genres (indie rock, singer songwriters, hip-hop) the entry-level floor for contra is actually quite good. The problem is that the ceiling isn't all that much higher than the floor. And if anything the example of talented musicians who move on to other genres that pay better speaks to the impact of the low ceiling on the musicians. I don't think either Rhiannon or Thomas ever play for dances anymore, which is a loss for the dance community (though those two seem to be doing just fine). If you're going to think about the big picture of encouraging professional contra musicians by paying them better/ well, then you also need to take dance weekends and camps into account, both of which really should be paying better than they do. When I each at a singing weekend, for example, I make more than twice as much as I would at a dance weekend. Same is true for summer weeks. So I don't play dance weekends any more.", "timestamp": "1481842802"}, {"author": "Sophia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=832001974252&reply_comment_id=832177971552", "anchor": "fb-832001974252_832177971552", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Brendan Makes sense. I think it may also be true that the relatively high floor brings in talented musicians from lower-paying genres, though I'm not sure whether that balances out the losses to higher-paying ones. But as an example, I know a few people who've moved from classical gigs to contra gigs as they've ramped up their professional music careers.", "timestamp": "1481845880"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=832001974252&reply_comment_id=832213185982", "anchor": "fb-832001974252_832213185982", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Having a small difference between ceiling and floor in contra is related to the idea that we should be paying everyone equally. BIDA, for example, pays everyone $100, with profit sharing if we make a bunch of money. We could offer higher guarantees for better talent, and lower for new folks or more casual talent, but like many organizations that's not how we approach it.", "timestamp": "1481856903"}, {"author": "Hollis", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=832147517582", "anchor": "fb-832147517582", "service": "fb", "text": "I guess I'm wondering to what extent you actually agree with the start of your pull quote: \"Everyone wants bands and callers to be paid well\".", "timestamp": "1481837257"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=832147517582&reply_comment_id=832148445722", "anchor": "fb-832147517582_832148445722", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I agreed with it at the time I wrote it?", "timestamp": "1481837453"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=832147517582&reply_comment_id=832148869872", "anchor": "fb-832147517582_832148869872", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I think maybe it's the difference between \"holding everything else constant, more money for bands and callers is good\" (which is fine, but silly) and \"on balance increasing money for bands and callers is good\" (which is much more complex and I don't know the answer).", "timestamp": "1481837558"}, {"author": "Julie", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=832163300952", "anchor": "fb-832163300952", "service": "fb", "text": "I really like BIDA's sliding fee scale policy. I think it's a core part of our mission. And like the comments above say, I think it works best with transparency, so that people can see where the money goes if they give more. I'm glad you wrote this post, Jeff! For years I've been proposing a graphic pie chart to display at the entrance table, showing where the money goes, (I even put the data together), but no one has had time/follow-through to make it. Can you make one easily from this round of data, Jeff Kaufman?", "timestamp": "1481841607"}, {"author": "Julie", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=832167173192", "anchor": "fb-832167173192", "service": "fb", "text": "As a contra performer, I've also been doing somewhat of a \"sliding fee scale\". I ask organizers for what I feel a fair rate of pay would be for an evening or weekend, but along with that I tell them that I'm willing to work with them to find a rate that works for their community. This way, they know what a fair rate would be, but I'm not asking more of the dance than it can pay. It recognizes the balance between the fact that I'm a professional making a living at this (as best I can, at least, it's modest for sure), and the fact that at its heart, this is a folk, semi- or non-professional, community- based activity.", "timestamp": "1481841838"}, {"author": "David", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=832167173192&reply_comment_id=832627380932", "anchor": "fb-832167173192_832627380932", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Well put, Julie! My approach is similar. Although I'm no longer invited to larger contra dancing events with any frequency, I do call and/or play for a fair number of weddings. Provided that my initial gut feeling about the person(s) contacting me is positive, I lay out both my customary fee and my resolve to work out a mutually rewarding arrangement. I believe the results have been overwhelmingly positive for all involved.", "timestamp": "1482011183"}, {"author": "Luke", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/831937588282?comment_id=832624471762", "anchor": "fb-832624471762", "service": "fb", "text": "Mad Robin Callers Collective has been doing a sliding scale fee for our regular monthly dance for years.

When we first started, we did keep track of who paid what. We now just keep track of the average admission. We ask $5~$12+. The yearly average is about $8.

We've noticed that the average goes up in the summer when the students aren't around, and goes down when they're back (but the attendance numbers go up). To me, that says that the sliding scale helps bring students in, and we have dedicated year-round community members who value and support our dance.

So we're happy with our sliding scale model.", "timestamp": "1482010218"}]}