{"items": [{"author": "Josh", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/990058362982?comment_id=990058542622", "anchor": "fb-990058542622", "service": "fb", "text": "I have the vague recollection that there's an English dance or two that messes with this in deliberate ways, like a figure that would normally be within a phrase that instead crosses a phrase, to be interesting and weird on purpose. Can't offhand think of what, though. :^p", "timestamp": "1555523774"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/990058362982?comment_id=990058542622&reply_comment_id=990060029642", "anchor": "fb-990058542622_990060029642", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Yes, you can intentionally cross the phrase, but it's a strong effect that you shouldn't overuse!", "timestamp": "1555524457"}, {"author": "Kendall", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/990058362982?comment_id=990058542622&reply_comment_id=990061142412", "anchor": "fb-990058542622_990061142412", "service": "fb", "text": "→ ECD: In a fairly simple way, the dance Jack's Health crosses the phrase. There's a 4-changes-of-rights-and-lefts with the first two changes on one phrase and the last two beginning the next phrase.", "timestamp": "1555524985"}, {"author": "Josh", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/990058362982?comment_id=990058542622&reply_comment_id=990069435792", "anchor": "fb-990058542622_990069435792", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Ooh, that may well be what I'm thinking of.", "timestamp": "1555529028"}, {"author": "Melissa", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/990058362982?comment_id=990058542622&reply_comment_id=990138891602", "anchor": "fb-990058542622_990138891602", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Or the \u201cround-o\u201d tunes, that don\u2019t resolve till the downbeat of the next round, so you think you\u2019ll be late right up until you aren\u2019t.", "timestamp": "1555563472"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1555572025"}, {"author": "Jan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/990058362982?comment_id=990058886932", "anchor": "fb-990058886932", "service": "fb", "text": "I think of phrasing in 8, though you can count it half-time or double time so best to cover all bases. And yes, certain English dances deliberately break the mold (like Trip to Paris, yes?)", "timestamp": "1555523886"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/990058362982?comment_id=990058886932&reply_comment_id=990060259182", "anchor": "fb-990058886932_990060259182", "service": "fb", "text": "→ The longer ones (up to 32-count and 64-count) are also needed. Only having an 8-count is a lot of why many things people try to use for alternative music contra are hard to dance to.", "timestamp": "1555524572"}, {"author": "Kendall", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/990058362982?comment_id=990058886932&reply_comment_id=990061875942", "anchor": "fb-990058886932_990061875942", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Trip to Paris is pretty on-the-music. it just has an extra bit of music for the turn single marking \"the joyous return home from the trip to Paris.\" The rest of that dance can feel frenetic if dancers aren't anticipating the music and ready to move, but technically nothing's across the phrase.", "timestamp": "1555525421"}, {"author": "Ambivert", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/990058362982?comment_id=990058886932&reply_comment_id=990062384922", "anchor": "fb-990058886932_990062384922", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Can you explain that further, Jeff? Or is it in the article, which I have saved for a proper break :)", "timestamp": "1555525581"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/990058362982?comment_id=990058886932&reply_comment_id=990064111462", "anchor": "fb-990058886932_990064111462", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Ambivert there's some about it in the post; maybe reply back here if it's not clear after reading?", "timestamp": "1555526851"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1555572349"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/990058362982?comment_id=990058886932&reply_comment_id=990150129082", "anchor": "fb-990058886932_990150129082", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Wang you can do worse than that, though! What about something like:
(1) stamp
(2) roll away
(4) balance
(8) long lines
(1) stamp", "timestamp": "1555584979"}, {"author": "Angela", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/990058362982?comment_id=990060304092", "anchor": "fb-990060304092", "service": "fb", "text": "Hm, I don't think I've ever thought of a give-and-take as a 4-count move.", "timestamp": "1555524600"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/990058362982?comment_id=990060304092&reply_comment_id=990060363972", "anchor": "fb-990060304092_990060363972", "service": "fb", "text": "→ You're right, that's an 8-count (4 counts in, four counts out)", "timestamp": "1555524663"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/990058362982?comment_id=990060304092&reply_comment_id=990060398902", "anchor": "fb-990060304092_990060398902", "service": "fb", "text": "→ edited", "timestamp": "1555524686"}, {"author": "Angela", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/990058362982?comment_id=990060304092&reply_comment_id=990060423852", "anchor": "fb-990060304092_990060423852", "service": "fb", "text": "→ It is squishy, though. Like, one *could* do a 4-count give and take, I guess!", "timestamp": "1555524724"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/990058362982?comment_id=990060304092&reply_comment_id=990061147402", "anchor": "fb-990060304092_990061147402", "service": "fb", "text": "→ It might end up being 6-count in practice most of the time?", "timestamp": "1555524986"}, {"author": "Angela", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/990058362982?comment_id=990060304092&reply_comment_id=990061391912", "anchor": "fb-990060304092_990061391912", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Yes, I think that's probably right!", "timestamp": "1555525139"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/990058362982?comment_id=990060304092&reply_comment_id=990061426842", "anchor": "fb-990060304092_990061426842", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I'm going to remove this example from the list then, since it doesn't really fit", "timestamp": "1555525181"}, {"author": "Yaron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/990058362982?comment_id=990060304092&reply_comment_id=990062644402", "anchor": "fb-990060304092_990062644402", "service": "fb", "text": "→ But (jiving with the other point in the article) give-and-take into a swing will generally (almost invariably) end at the end of a 16-count phrase", "timestamp": "1555525811"}, {"author": "Kiran", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/990058362982?comment_id=990060304092&reply_comment_id=990068043582", "anchor": "fb-990060304092_990068043582", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Larry Jennings felt it should be a 4 count move. 2 steps forward, 2 back. He could demonstrate it that way even in his 70s with Parkinson's disease.", "timestamp": "1555528528"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/990058362982?comment_id=990060304092&reply_comment_id=990068397872", "anchor": "fb-990060304092_990068397872", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Kiran two beats in and two beats out?", "timestamp": "1555528584"}, {"author": "Kiran", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/990058362982?comment_id=990060304092&reply_comment_id=990068457752", "anchor": "fb-990060304092_990068457752", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Yep. It's not hard to do that way.", "timestamp": "1555528627"}, {"author": "BDan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/990058362982?comment_id=990060304092&reply_comment_id=990071381892", "anchor": "fb-990060304092_990071381892", "service": "fb", "text": "→ This ties into the definition of phrasing that I\u2019m familiar with from SCD, which amounts to, \u201cgiven that these n pieces fit into an 8 bar phrase (usually), how many bars does each part take? That comes up a lot for things with three or six parts.", "timestamp": "1555530079"}, {"author": "Yoyo", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/990058362982?comment_id=990060304092&reply_comment_id=990076556522", "anchor": "fb-990060304092_990076556522", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I agree with Kiran and Larry Jennings - it's much better as a 4-beat move.", "timestamp": "1555532570"}, {"author": "Angela", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/990058362982?comment_id=990060304092&reply_comment_id=990083836932", "anchor": "fb-990060304092_990083836932", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Ooh, /weeeeeird/. I definitely have *feelings* that a 4-count Give & Take is more of a \"Go over and get\" and kind of ends up losing the \"Give\" aspect altogether. I usually make a huge teaching point of taking up more time to bring whoever's on your side initially to the center with you before the \"take\" part happens.", "timestamp": "1555536393"}, {"author": "Tony", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/990058362982?comment_id=990060304092&reply_comment_id=990303386952", "anchor": "fb-990060304092_990303386952", "service": "fb", "text": "→ FWIW (and veering off topic): As a caller I never present dances with give-and-take, because as a dancer I dislike the move. I have no objection to it in principle, but in practice I find it takes a degree of skill (over and above dance-walking and giving weight) which most dancers have trouble with -- aggravated by the fact that some dancers feel it as a 4-beat move, others as an 8-beat move. The only move I can think of that demands that much skill is the swing, and (1) there's pretty strong consensus on how to do a swing and (2) callers have evolved effective methods of teaching it. If give-and-take gets to that point (consensus and effective teaching), my objections will probably disappear. (I also think there are now too many terms in the contra dance vocabulary, but that's a whole 'nother kettle of worms and definitely off topic.)", "timestamp": "1555682626"}, {"author": "Aleksandra", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/990058362982?comment_id=990062050592", "anchor": "fb-990062050592", "service": "fb", "text": "I think of it as the music version of enunciation.", "timestamp": "1555525459"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/990058362982?comment_id=990062050592&reply_comment_id=990064266152", "anchor": "fb-990062050592_990064266152", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Aleks that's what it means in most genres, but in contra \"phrasing\" or \"well phrased\" gets used specifically to mean something like \"can you hear when all the 2^n counts are\"", "timestamp": "1555526931"}, {"author": "Aleksandra", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/990058362982?comment_id=990062050592&reply_comment_id=990064321042", "anchor": "fb-990062050592_990064321042", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman That sounds like a specific subset of the more general definition :P", "timestamp": "1555526986"}, {"author": "Seth", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/990058362982?comment_id=990105787942", "anchor": "fb-990105787942", "service": "fb", "text": "A quibble: swings do not HAVE to end at the end of the phrase. That is certainly the modern convention and has been for virtually all dances written since 1980 or so. However it wasn\u2019t that way in times past and there are rare dances that end in the middle of the phrase still. They don\u2019t get called often but they are out there.", "timestamp": "1555547855"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/990058362982?comment_id=990105787942&reply_comment_id=990106112292", "anchor": "fb-990105787942_990106112292", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Seth I agree that this is a way that contra dance used to be different, and in some other dance styles (MWSD) there are other conventions for when the swing ends. But modern contra dancers will (correctly) swing until the end of the 16-count phrase unless you very clearly teach otherwise.", "timestamp": "1555548151"}, {"author": "Seth", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/990058362982?comment_id=990105787942&reply_comment_id=990106945622", "anchor": "fb-990105787942_990106945622", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman yep!", "timestamp": "1555548529"}, {"author": "Richard", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/990058362982?comment_id=990105787942&reply_comment_id=990138023342", "anchor": "fb-990105787942_990138023342", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Actually, when I first started calling contra, I was surprised to see that quite a few contra dancers would continue swinging *past* the end of a 16 beat phrase, and that I sometimes had to prompt the next figure to help them end the swing on time.", "timestamp": "1555562592"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/990058362982?comment_id=990105787942&reply_comment_id=990149490362", "anchor": "fb-990105787942_990149490362", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Richard I would expect that to happen with either new dancers, or with music that didn't clearly cue the end of the phrase?", "timestamp": "1555583860"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/990058362982?comment_id=990105787942&reply_comment_id=990150563212", "anchor": "fb-990105787942_990150563212", "service": "fb", "text": "→ There's also \"perpetual beginners\" who still do this at the wrong time even though they've been dancing for years. In some cases I think they're \"people who can't hear phrasing\" and so are missing key information that everyone else is getting intuitively.", "timestamp": "1555585567"}, {"author": "Seth", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/990058362982?comment_id=990105787942&reply_comment_id=990151675982", "anchor": "fb-990105787942_990151675982", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman Ted Sanella was said to have no sense of rhythm and had to count all the time.", "timestamp": "1555586941"}, {"author": "Tony", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/990058362982?comment_id=990105787942&reply_comment_id=990190403372", "anchor": "fb-990105787942_990190403372", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Seth Rhythm is different from phrasing (and both are different from timing). Ted may have had trouble hearing the 8-count phrase (though I never noticed as much), but he had a strong sense of rhythm: His calling was always on the beat. You can hear him on the CD \"Calling Traditional New England Squares\" (part of a book/CD set from CDSS -- a must for would-be NE style square callers).", "timestamp": "1555609564"}, {"author": "Yaron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/990058362982?comment_id=990105787942&reply_comment_id=990295906942", "anchor": "fb-990105787942_990295906942", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Otoh, listening to Dudley Laufman - on the CD that comes with \"Traditional Barn Dances with Calls and Fiddling\", or the vintage videos that were making the rounds some time ago - he seems to flout the phrasing and the \"4 before the downbeat\" convention... (The precious few times I've heard him live - actually, may have only been once - I don't specifically remember remarking this.)", "timestamp": "1555677076"}, {"author": "Yaron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/990058362982?comment_id=990105787942&reply_comment_id=990296361032", "anchor": "fb-990105787942_990296361032", "service": "fb", "text": "→ There are also some contra dancers who seem to just not really give a gnat about the phrasing and how they affect the dance by ending the swing too late, and do fancy flourishes or just keep swinging (or moves from other dance forms vaguely resembling swinging) past the phrase. I see that in the Boston area less now than I used to. E.g. I remember someone whom I haven't seen in years, who would dip the lady on every . single . swing . And come into the next move late.", "timestamp": "1555677472"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/990058362982?comment_id=990105787942&reply_comment_id=990297688372", "anchor": "fb-990105787942_990297688372", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Yaron I think some of that is people who can't hear the phrase, but there's also some of people having different priorities. In my favorite style being exactly on time is one of the best parts, and it allows thing like taking hands for an allemande or balance exactly on the beat. But there are people and communities with different styles that prioritize other aspects of the dance.", "timestamp": "1555678256"}, {"author": "Tony", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/990058362982?comment_id=990105787942&reply_comment_id=990304419882", "anchor": "fb-990105787942_990304419882", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Yaron If someone is dipping on every swing, I would conclude (and I gather you would agree) that \"coming into the next move late\" *in this case* is not inability to hear/feel the phrase, but refusal to accept that contra dancing is a group effort, not a couple dance. (If they're dipping nonconsensually, of course that compounds the rudeness.)", "timestamp": "1555683546"}]}