{"items": [{"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989262547802", "anchor": "fb-989262547802", "service": "fb", "text": "I think right shoulder round is my favorite option. It's the one I settled around before I retired from calling. It's not that challenging to call, even though it's more syllables than \"gypsy\", and it can be easily shortened as you said. I used \"walk around\" before that, but that's not as descriptive and didn't emphasize the shoulder or that you face your partner/neighbor/same-role person. And I hope I never hear the term \"gyre\" as a substitute for this move ever again..", "timestamp": "1554987189"}, {"author": "Jay", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989263111672", "anchor": "fb-989263111672", "service": "fb", "text": "Quick thing--it's not just a term for an oppressed group, it's actually a slur. The actual term for that group of people is Roma, or Romani https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people#Names", "timestamp": "1554987566"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989263111672&reply_comment_id=989267003872", "anchor": "fb-989263111672_989267003872", "service": "fb", "text": "→ It being a term for an oppressed group is enough reason to move away from it. Getting into whether it is a slur tends to derail conversations about whether and how we should move to something else.", "timestamp": "1554990296"}, {"author": "Craig", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989263111672&reply_comment_id=989487007982", "anchor": "fb-989263111672_989487007982", "service": "fb", "text": "→ A little late, I think, for that, Jeff. It is fact and part of the historical record: We the Contra community are here today \u2014 with many (most?) callers either using \u201cturn by the shoulder\u201d or (even) instead removing from their repertoire all dances that contain the figure \u2014 because of several-years of Contra faux \u2018social justice\u2019 SHOUTING \u201cIt\u2019s a slur!!!\u201d
In fact, early in the discussion, sometimes folks were \u2018outed\u2019 and labeled \u2018racists\u2019 \ud835\uddfa\ud835\uddf2\ud835\uddff\ud835\uddf2\ud835\uddf9\ud835\ude06 \ud835\uddf3\ud835\uddfc\ud835\uddff \ud835\uddee\ud835\ude01\ud835\ude01\ud835\uddf2\ud835\uddfa\ud835\uddfd\ud835\ude01\ud835\uddf6\ud835\uddfb\ud835\uddf4 \ud835\ude01\ud835\uddfc \ud835\uddf1\ud835\uddf6\ud835\ude00\ud835\uddf0\ud835\ude02\ud835\ude00\ud835\ude00 \ud835\ude01\ud835\uddf5\ud835\uddf2 \ud835\uddf6\ud835\ude00\ud835\ude00\ud835\ude02\ud835\uddf2 \ud835\ude00\ud835\uddee\ud835\uddfb\ud835\ude00-\ud835\uddee\ud835\ude00\ud835\ude01\ud835\uddf2\ud835\uddff\ud835\uddf6\ud835\ude00\ud835\uddf8, that\u2019d be writing it Gypsy (or gypsy) rather than g****.", "timestamp": "1555130722"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989263111672&reply_comment_id=989494128712", "anchor": "fb-989263111672_989494128712", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Craig your response is a good example of how the question of whether \"gypsy\" is a slur doesn't help the discussion.
The comments on this post have generally been reasonable, but your three comments are pushing the discussion in a confrontational and vitriolic direction. I've seen a lot of that style discussions over the past ~5 years and have no desire to host another of them here. If people jump on you for writing \"gypsy\" here I'm happy to tell them to stop, but if you're going to keep commenting here please drop the scrappy \"picking a fight\" approach.", "timestamp": "1555143268"}, {"author": "Craig", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989263111672&reply_comment_id=989564432822", "anchor": "fb-989263111672_989564432822", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff, Your response is a good example of how ignoring the question here doesn't help the discussion.
The Question being whether THE WAY in which Contra landed here matters \u2014 Here being, \u201ca consensus alternative\u201d to Gypsy, which is what your OP is about.
I\u2019m sorry that you find my commenting \u201cscrappy\u201d, but I find it a little frustrating that folks in the anti-Gypsy camp are unwilling to face-up to What Has Taken Place in Contra over the past ~4 years.
I am not going to attempt to much address that in your little timeline thread \u2014 a proper review of what has taken place, vis-\u00e0-vis Gypsy in Contra, will require something considerably longer than my commenting to a thread.
And what has taken place is a matter of historical\u2014and mostly written\u2014record. True, some threads and many comments were deleted back in the day, but I\u2019ve multi-versioned archives going all the way back to the \u2018breakout\u2019 of this issue from the callers-only discussion at \u2018Shared Weight\u2019, Oct/Nov 2015.
Re \u201cIf people jump on you for writing \"gypsy\" here I'm happy to tell them to stop\u201d \u2014 I am fairly certain that, at this point, no one will attack me for writing Gypsy. And, thanks, for letting me know that you would stop them, were that to happen.
I think, Jeff, that it comes down to this:
Initiatives like \u201cIf you've been waiting for a consensus alternative\u201d [the time is now] are built upon ill-gotten gains, achieved at the expense of Gypsy peoples and Gypsy culture.
(Not to mention at considerable expense to the Contra community too.)
Because, in the pursuit of this goal, our community now widely views the word itself \u2014 and ANYTHING associated with the word \u2014 as shameful.
And yes, our track record on strike-Gypsy clearly shows that our community extends that shame to those peoples who so identify as \u2014 as if they, in their \u201cignorance\u201d, don\u2019t realize that they are actually \u2018Roma\u2019 \u2026 that they must give up their (it\u2019s a slur) identity.
That is what I was referring to, above, when I wrote: A little late, I think, for that, Jeff.", "timestamp": "1555182724"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989263111672&reply_comment_id=989569906852", "anchor": "fb-989263111672_989569906852", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Craig when I wrote \"consensus alternative to gypsy\" I didn't mean that the whole community had agreed on switching; I agree that's not where we are. I meant that, among the people that do think we should move to a new term, \"right shoulder round\" has become the clear choice.
(Your comments continue to be the most argumentative ones here, and your phrasing is not helping your case.)", "timestamp": "1555184674"}, {"author": "Craig", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989263111672&reply_comment_id=989572207242", "anchor": "fb-989263111672_989572207242", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff, with respect: I never said\u2014nor suggested that you had OP\u2019d\u2014anything along the lines of \u201cwhole community had agreed\u201d (on anything.)
Instead, specifically, \u201camong the people that do think we should move to a new term\u201d \u2014 that they have built their wishes on ILL-GOTTEN gains. (see my just-previous reply)
p.s. Please try to see our exchange here as something akin to debate, rather than continuing to cast me as \u201cargumentative\u201d (and yourself as, well, I dunno, doesn\u2019t matter)
Thanks in advance, that.", "timestamp": "1555185997"}, {"author": "Leah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989263730432", "anchor": "fb-989263730432", "service": "fb", "text": "I had started calling it a \u201ctwo-eyed turn\u201d but yours is way better. \ud83d\ude42", "timestamp": "1554987922"}, {"author": "Lauren", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989264448992", "anchor": "fb-989264448992", "service": "fb", "text": "I heard someone call it \"turn by the eyes\" and I really love how that sounds and feels to describe what you're doing. But that's me.", "timestamp": "1554988670"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989264448992&reply_comment_id=989267712452", "anchor": "fb-989264448992_989267712452", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Just a note: any description of the move that uses the word \"eyes\" can force eye contact that might be uncomfortable for a lot of folks who don't like that much eye contact. That's why I like calling it a right shoulder round and defining it by saying \"face the other person\" rather than \"make eye contact with the other person\". That way, people can choose whether or not to make eye contact on their own.", "timestamp": "1554991091"}, {"author": "Lauren", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989264448992&reply_comment_id=989270531802", "anchor": "fb-989264448992_989270531802", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Perry That's totally fair", "timestamp": "1554993077"}, {"author": "Chet", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989264448992&reply_comment_id=989272607642", "anchor": "fb-989264448992_989272607642", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I make a point to use the phrase \"with as much eye contact as you both find comfortable, which could even be none\", not only here but during intro sessions and when introducing any figure where intentional eye contact is the style.", "timestamp": "1554994409"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989264448992&reply_comment_id=989292078622", "anchor": "fb-989264448992_989292078622", "service": "fb", "text": "→ That sounds pretty good. I should use that in my lessons. I don't want to diminish eye contact in contra dancing, but I also don't want to force people beyond their level of comfort either. I think your phrase fits the bill here.", "timestamp": "1555005533"}, {"author": "Yaron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989264448992&reply_comment_id=989303475782", "anchor": "fb-989264448992_989303475782", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I used to use Jacob's \"Look your <nbr/ptnr> in the right eyeball and walk around them\", but have moved away from this. (I wonder if Jacob still uses this...) (Also, in Concord MA there's a blind dancer...)", "timestamp": "1555011340"}, {"author": "Jacob", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989264448992&reply_comment_id=989338695202", "anchor": "fb-989264448992_989338695202", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Yaron I wouldn't be surprised to hear that come out of my mouth during a walk through, depending on the social context of the dance, but I've found that if I follow a \"two-hand turn\" with a \"no-hand turn\", the move is done by everyone, no special teaching required.", "timestamp": "1555026958"}, {"author": "Jenny", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989266554772", "anchor": "fb-989266554772", "service": "fb", "text": "\"Dance right shoulder round\" is simple and descriptive. Unfortunately the words right, shoulder, and around are used to describe the lots of different dance moves so it doesn't stand out when you are cuing. The issue I have for calling English dancing is I need a term for the figure not just a description of the movement. Where Contra Dance choreography has become mostly a sequence of moves between swings, English dancing is still more like a string of figures.", "timestamp": "1554990085"}, {"author": "Sarah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989266554772&reply_comment_id=989267592692", "anchor": "fb-989266554772_989267592692", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jenny this is a great example where a switch to the term \u201cvis a vis\u201d (my favorite replacement term) might work better than a movement description.", "timestamp": "1554990956"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989266554772&reply_comment_id=989267882112", "anchor": "fb-989266554772_989267882112", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I don't think ECD and contra have to use the same term here. My impression is that ECD is still in the \"trying things out\" phase, figuring out what is a good fit for the dance.", "timestamp": "1554991263"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989266554772&reply_comment_id=989268331212", "anchor": "fb-989266554772_989268331212", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Those words separately may be used to describe many other dance moves, but when they are used together then it's pretty clear what move you are talking about. I think \"vis a vis\" would be likely to cause more confusion than the descriptive \"right shoulder round\", since the term \"vis a vis\" has never been used in contra before up until now. But \"right shoulder round\" would probably require little explanation since the name of the move is self-explanatory, and I think that instead of teaching what a vis a vis is, I feel that callers will just say \"this used to be called a gypsy\" - which will then lead dancers to say \"then why not just call it gypsy?\"", "timestamp": "1554991401"}, {"author": "Sarah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989266554772&reply_comment_id=989269034802", "anchor": "fb-989266554772_989269034802", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Contra has had all kinds of new terms introduced recently and has absorbed them without issue. \u201cMad Robin\u201d is one that comes to mind. \u201cSlice\u201d is another. Part of the fun of participating in a dance form is learning (and improving) the vernacular. Otherwise why call a hey a \u201cHey\u201d and not a \u201cCrossweave\u201d?", "timestamp": "1554991760"}, {"author": "Hollis", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989266554772&reply_comment_id=989269528812", "anchor": "fb-989266554772_989269528812", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Twizzle. Face-to-face. No-hand Turn. Spiral right. Orbit. Zephyr. Breeze around. Whirligig.", "timestamp": "1554992109"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989266554772&reply_comment_id=989269573722", "anchor": "fb-989266554772_989269573722", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Sarah People have tried a lot of terms at contra dances including \"vis a vis\", \"face to face\", \"gyre\", \"facetime\", \"hippie\", \"saw see\", \"roam around\", \"walk around\", \"turn by the eyes\", and \"spiral\", and of these it looks to me like \"right shoulder round\" has worked the best.", "timestamp": "1554992122"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989266554772&reply_comment_id=989269583702", "anchor": "fb-989266554772_989269583702", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I think that terms like hey and mad robin have been part of the contra vernacular for enough years that most dancers today have absorbed them well enough. But I feel that moves can have descriptive names too well enough. I mean, we haven't come up with a name for \"long lines forward and back\" yet, so I feel OK to put \"right shoulder round\" in that category of moves.
I suppose if we were to change to vis a vis, that there would be a feeling out period and then we'd be OK. But I also feel that by now enough callers have changed to \"right shoulder round\" and enough dancers have absorbed it so they know what it means and how to do it with little explanation.
I'm also interested to hear how \"vis a vis\" sounds on the microphone.", "timestamp": "1554992129"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989266554772&reply_comment_id=989269648572", "anchor": "fb-989266554772_989269648572", "service": "fb", "text": "→ There's value in exploring how terms work, and I'm glad we spent the last ~5 years [1] doing that instead of going with the first thing anyone thought of, but if we're going to shift to a new term at some point we need to move to the next step of pushing a preferred alternative.
[1] Dating back to at least the now-deleted 2014 post proposing \"hippie\": https://www.facebook.com/.../permalink/573176122767029/", "timestamp": "1554992289"}, {"author": "Sarah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989266554772&reply_comment_id=989269933002", "anchor": "fb-989266554772_989269933002", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman They haven\u2019t been tried at the contra dances I\u2019ve attended, but my comment was addressing Jenny\u2019s concern about the use in ECD.", "timestamp": "1554992459"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989266554772&reply_comment_id=989269972922", "anchor": "fb-989266554772_989269972922", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Sarah: I was responding to your \"Contra has had all kinds of new terms introduced recently...\" comment, sorry!", "timestamp": "1554992503"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989266554772&reply_comment_id=989270062742", "anchor": "fb-989266554772_989270062742", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I think if ECD ends up with, say, \"vis a vis\", and contra ends up with \"right shoulder round\" that's fine outcome", "timestamp": "1554992563"}, {"author": "Chet", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989266554772&reply_comment_id=989273959932", "anchor": "fb-989266554772_989273959932", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I prefer eliminating jargon in many situations, and it really is situational, depending on the audience, at what point in the dance I'm calling, how thorough my walkthrough was. E.g. \"by the right hand, turn\" vs just \"allemande\". I've definitely prompted heys as \"weave across\". Hell, I've prompted Mad Robins as \"face your partner, slide around your neighbor\".
Jargon use can be positive and negative. It can make for efficient teaching or prompting to those who understand the jargon, and it can be a crutch for poor teaching to mixed crowds. We're a long way off from the CALLERLAB and standardized calls and levels of Modern Western Square Dance, but we should decide how far in the direction of unapproachability we're okay with going for the sake of efficiency.", "timestamp": "1554995321"}, {"author": "Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989266554772&reply_comment_id=989281958902", "anchor": "fb-989266554772_989281958902", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Perry Actually, I was recently at a dance -- at BIDA, in fact -- where the terms \"right, shoulder, and around\" -- in that order -- were used to describe some sort of mutant poussette. I missed a few words during the walkthrough and was confused for at least a quarter of the dance, as was my partner and some of our neighbors.
i've been at other dances where it was unclear whether the caller meant us to dance around each other or pass by each other.
I strongly favor \"vis-a-vis\" and/or \"face to face\" for these and many other reasons, and disagree with Jeff about it being too late to introduce better terms.", "timestamp": "1555000144"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989266554772&reply_comment_id=989282088642", "anchor": "fb-989266554772_989282088642", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Michael - you're talking about bad calling that is the fault of the caller, not the terminology used. As they say, a tool is only as good as the person who wields it. If you're going to call \"vis a vis\", you're still going to have to learn to teach it effectively.", "timestamp": "1555000287"}, {"author": "Chris", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989266554772&reply_comment_id=989291075632", "anchor": "fb-989266554772_989291075632", "service": "fb", "text": "→ In Scottish Country Dance, \"hey\" is called \"reel\".", "timestamp": "1555005077"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989266554772&reply_comment_id=989291679422", "anchor": "fb-989266554772_989291679422", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Chris and \"allemande\" is pretty different too!", "timestamp": "1555005380"}, {"author": "Yaron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989266554772&reply_comment_id=989303755222", "anchor": "fb-989266554772_989303755222", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I believe I know what dance you're talking about, and I think it's a case where the caller was still working out an effective walk-through for the dance. Once I got the hang of the dance, I actually enjoyed it enough to jot it down, and later found it on the 'net: http://chrispagecontra.awardspace.us/dances/index.htm... - does this look familiar?
It does in fact involve a right-shoulder-round (i.e., what has been traditionally called a \"gypsy\"), somewhere between 1/2-way and 3/4, then flows into crossing the set similarly to the way you would in a poussette but without hands. So, \"right shoulder round\" imho would be appropriate there.", "timestamp": "1555011613"}, {"author": "Chris", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989266554772&reply_comment_id=989317777122", "anchor": "fb-989266554772_989317777122", "service": "fb", "text": "→ One other interesting data point: contra has \u201cdo-si-do.\u201d ECD has \u201cback-to-back.\u201d", "timestamp": "1555017300"}, {"author": "Chet", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989266554772&reply_comment_id=989318765142", "anchor": "fb-989266554772_989318765142", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Contra has \"star\", ECD has \"hands across\".", "timestamp": "1555017563"}, {"author": "Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989266554772&reply_comment_id=989372627202", "anchor": "fb-989266554772_989372627202", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Yaron It looks familiar, but I don't think it's exactly the same dance I'm thinking of -- though I may be wrong.", "timestamp": "1555051166"}, {"author": "Alexandra", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989266554772&reply_comment_id=990067359952", "anchor": "fb-989266554772_990067359952", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Chet yes! I don\u2019t like that though. Whenever I hear hands across at ecd I reach my right hand straight across the set! It\u2019s a misleading call. \ud83d\ude1e", "timestamp": "1555528365"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989266554772&reply_comment_id=990068088492", "anchor": "fb-989266554772_990068088492", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Alexandra if you think of it as \"take hands across the hands-four/minor set\" is that clearer?", "timestamp": "1555528551"}, {"author": "Alexandra", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989266554772&reply_comment_id=990070743172", "anchor": "fb-989266554772_990070743172", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman not really. We use rights and lefts so often in ECD that\u2019s always where my mind goes. Why can\u2019t we cue stars?", "timestamp": "1555529606"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989266554772&reply_comment_id=990070962732", "anchor": "fb-989266554772_990070962732", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I think in the ECDs I've been to in my area, they are called stars - though I don't go often. Though I think in the ECD mindset, \"hands across\" with nothing else refers to a star, while if you are doing something with the person directly across, callers usually tell you what it is. So when I'm doing ECD, I kind of know what \"hands across\" refers to, yet when doing contra I know it refers to something else.
Next time I go I'll observe what the caller is saying if we do a hands-across star - if they call it a star or not.", "timestamp": "1555529787"}, {"author": "Holly", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989269783302", "anchor": "fb-989269783302", "service": "fb", "text": "I love it!", "timestamp": "1554992333"}, {"author": "Anna", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989275786272", "anchor": "fb-989275786272", "service": "fb", "text": "I appreciate this post and I'm curious if they're using right shoulder round out here in Cincinnati. Do you mind if I share this with the group?", "timestamp": "1554996572"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989275786272&reply_comment_id=989277432972", "anchor": "fb-989275786272_989277432972", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Public and shareable!", "timestamp": "1554997438"}, {"author": "Kristen", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989275786272&reply_comment_id=989320272122", "anchor": "fb-989275786272_989320272122", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Anna different callers say different things here in Cincinnati. I switched to right shoulder round last year (and I\u2019m calling for the last time here this Saturday!).", "timestamp": "1555018533"}, {"author": "Kristen", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989275786272&reply_comment_id=989321125412", "anchor": "fb-989275786272_989321125412", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Anna I see you\u2019ve posted in the \u201cfriends and community\u201d group. I sincerely hope you receive a polite reaction, but I should say that around this time last year a lot of drama went down around role terms. Please know that that group is neither run nor sanctioned by the board and as such the moderation can be poor at times. The official group is Cincinnati Contra Dancers.", "timestamp": "1555018967"}, {"author": "Anna", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989275786272&reply_comment_id=989336893812", "anchor": "fb-989275786272_989336893812", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Kristen thanks! I haven't been able to make it to dances yet, so I appreciate the context!", "timestamp": "1555025950"}, {"author": "Dela", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989286000802", "anchor": "fb-989286000802", "service": "fb", "text": "Agreed. Thanks for writing this analysis. Perhaps it's a CDSS newsletter letter?", "timestamp": "1555002027"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989286000802&reply_comment_id=989291709362", "anchor": "fb-989286000802_989291709362", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I'll send it in, see what they say.", "timestamp": "1555005415"}, {"author": "Don", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989291340102", "anchor": "fb-989291340102", "service": "fb", "text": "While I'd love to have a more succinct single name for the move for use in the context of say a medley - where speed and clarity is of the essence, I have been using Right Shoulder 'Round myself now. One reason is that I can also use Left Shoulder 'Round for the mirror move and the important part comes first - the handedness/direction.", "timestamp": "1555005215"}, {"author": "Dugan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989291340102&reply_comment_id=990046541672", "anchor": "fb-989291340102_990046541672", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I've also regretted not feeling like I can include the figure in medleys for fear that people would scratch their heads at whatever word I used without including it first in a walkthrough, but I think \"right/left shoulder round\" has the potential to be no-walk-through-compatible, especially as it continues to enjoy wider use.", "timestamp": "1555516824"}, {"author": "Eli\u0161ka", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989291340102&reply_comment_id=990104280962", "anchor": "fb-989291340102_990104280962", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Dugan +1 anecdata: there were dances in at least one of the NEFFA medleys this year that included right shoulder round, with no issues.", "timestamp": "1555547027"}, {"author": "Dennis", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989312143412", "anchor": "fb-989312143412", "service": "fb", "text": "The essence of the move has always been, for me, the eye contact. A term that emphasized that would make it as distinctive as it already is. Something like, maybe: Swing by the Eyes, or Eye Swing, or Gaze Around Right, or something like that.", "timestamp": "1555014886"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989312143412&reply_comment_id=989314648392", "anchor": "fb-989312143412_989314648392", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Dennis while the eye contact is important to many dancers, there are some dancers that find it intrusive and unpleasant. So one goal in suggesting alternate terms has been to find something that doesn't push people to use eye contact if they don't want to.", "timestamp": "1555016502"}, {"author": "Wendy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989312143412&reply_comment_id=989321868922", "anchor": "fb-989312143412_989321868922", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Dennis Gentle reminder that not everyone who dances has eyesight. However, I know callers who Say \u201cright shoulder round, face to face, or facing ...", "timestamp": "1555019420"}, {"author": "Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989312143412&reply_comment_id=990078527572", "anchor": "fb-989312143412_990078527572", "service": "fb", "text": "→ This is one of the reasons why I prefer \"vis-a-vis\" or \"face to face\"; while not MANDATING eye contact, it encourages it. I find that \"right shoulder around\" discourages it. When told to go right shoulders around someone, I meet right shoulders with them, like an ECD Sharp siding, and turn it -- so I am shoulder to shoulder. I may glance at their face while doing so, but the primary facing of my body is *past* them, not *toward* them, quite different from the move intended.", "timestamp": "1555533843"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989312143412&reply_comment_id=990290268242", "anchor": "fb-989312143412_990290268242", "service": "fb", "text": "→ You can face someone without eye contact. You could look at their ears or their forehead, but face to face to me doesn't, by itself, imply eye contact. A term like eye turn does though.", "timestamp": "1555671141"}, {"author": "Colette", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989331185252", "anchor": "fb-989331185252", "service": "fb", "text": "I've heard \"gravity turn\", which has the benefit of sounding superficially like the old term for longtime dancers and callers (see also: the phonetic/rhythmic similarity of \"ravens\" and \"ladies\" for dances that use lark/raven) and is more specific/less confusable than \"right shoulder round\"", "timestamp": "1555023258"}, {"author": "Lauren", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989331185252&reply_comment_id=989339872842", "anchor": "fb-989331185252_989339872842", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Colette Ooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhh", "timestamp": "1555027763"}, {"author": "Stephanie", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989367981512", "anchor": "fb-989367981512", "service": "fb", "text": "The problem with \"right shoulder round\" us that we already have something called \"round\". We've been working on this in Morris dancing. No decision yet.", "timestamp": "1555044397"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989367981512&reply_comment_id=989380007412", "anchor": "fb-989367981512_989380007412", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Stephanie when you say we already have something called \"round\" you mean \"rounds\" in Morris dancing, right?
What makes a good figure name in Morris is very different from contra so it's not a problem if you end up with a different name.", "timestamp": "1555068718"}, {"author": "Rebecca", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989381439542", "anchor": "fb-989381439542", "service": "fb", "text": "I don't mind changing gypsy, but Larks and Ravens, as commonly suggested, is confusing and offensive. Larks are small, with a high pitch voice--lady like. Raven's are large with a deeper call. I'm a lady. I'm insulted when I'm told I'm a raven, not a lark.", "timestamp": "1555069975"}, {"author": "Renee", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989381439542&reply_comment_id=989383954502", "anchor": "fb-989381439542_989383954502", "service": "fb", "text": "→ well, nobody's stopping you from switching to the lark role if you're that offended!", "timestamp": "1555072402"}, {"author": "Kristen", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989381439542&reply_comment_id=989386718962", "anchor": "fb-989381439542_989386718962", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Rebecca if you think that folks dancing the lady\u2019s role don\u2019t have to be actual ladies, is it possible to extend this belief so that folks dancing the raven\u2019s role are not actual ravens?", "timestamp": "1555074983"}, {"author": "Rebecca", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989381439542&reply_comment_id=989387462472", "anchor": "fb-989381439542_989387462472", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Renee I do dance the gent role occasionally, but calling a lady--the person usually dancing the role on the right--a Raven is offensive. (and I bet there are a lot of men who don't like being called a lark.)", "timestamp": "1555075768"}, {"author": "Rebecca", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989381439542&reply_comment_id=989387592212", "anchor": "fb-989381439542_989387592212", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Kristen Believe it or not, I do occasionally dance the gents' role--usually at smaller dances with poor gender balance. It's just not something I prefer on a regular basis. So, no, people dancing on the right don't have to be ladies--but they sure aren't Ravens either", "timestamp": "1555075925"}, {"author": "Kristen", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989381439542&reply_comment_id=989391070242", "anchor": "fb-989381439542_989391070242", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Rebecca I\u2019ve heard you say that you\u2019re open to changing role terms. What makes any one set better than another? I don\u2019t really want to be a spoon or a ladle.", "timestamp": "1555078287"}, {"author": "Rebecca", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989381439542&reply_comment_id=989409418472", "anchor": "fb-989381439542_989409418472", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Kristen There's right and left--but right is only one syllable. Jets and rubies, but apparently that's out of favor. Lead and follow, but that implies an imbalance. Keep trying... but in the meantime gents and ladies is (intended to be ) respectful.", "timestamp": "1555087686"}, {"author": "Kristen", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989381439542&reply_comment_id=989414134022", "anchor": "fb-989381439542_989414134022", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Rebecca right and left get very confusing to call with, \u201crights pass left\u201d and \u201clefts allemande right\u201d and the like get too confusing. Larks and Ravens attempt to keep left and right indicated in the words. The only other pair I\u2019ve though of with the right number of syllables is Lakes and Rivers, but it feels more odd to me to use inanimate objects rather than animals.", "timestamp": "1555090583"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989381439542&reply_comment_id=989415137012", "anchor": "fb-989381439542_989415137012", "service": "fb", "text": "→ It's pretty evident that there is *not* going to emerge the perfect set of terms that the dance community can agree to. Larks and ravens are the terms that are most widely used today in gender-free calling. And I don't think it doesn't matter that larks sound more \"feminine\" and ravens sound more \"masculine\", or if ravens are larger than larks - both are birds that there are male and female versions of. And that's the whole point - to use terms that don't identify whether you have masculine traits or feminine traits. It's just something that denotes whether you start on the left or on the right.
I think it's a stretch to ascribe the same gender problems to larks and ravens as there are in gents/ladies, or power dynamic like there is in lead/follow. Again, not the perfect set of terms, but they are the terms that are being widely used right now.
There actually has been tons of research done on which terms would suit dancers the best. Larks/ravens emerged as the winner. And now that many dancers have now adjusted to these terms, it might be a bad idea to change terms again - both for the confusion factor, and also because it would probably cause people to be so upset by constant changes that they'd revert back to gents/ladies just to give up.", "timestamp": "1555091246"}, {"author": "Rebecca", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989381439542&reply_comment_id=989417442392", "anchor": "fb-989381439542_989417442392", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I understand research is continuing. I wonder where this research has been done? Ah, well. One of the goals would be to keep dancers from leaving. I think I'd rather be a river than a raven. But, then again, I'm happy with ladies.", "timestamp": "1555092479"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989381439542&reply_comment_id=989484118772", "anchor": "fb-989381439542_989484118772", "service": "fb", "text": "→ You are offended because you prefer to dance a role that uses the name of a somewhat larger bird species, that has a relatively lower pitched call, than the bird species for which the other role was named, which is somewhat smaller and has a relatively higher pitched call?", "timestamp": "1555127657"}, {"author": "Rebecca", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989381439542&reply_comment_id=989507307302", "anchor": "fb-989381439542_989507307302", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I am offended to be called a bird--especially a raven.", "timestamp": "1555156104"}, {"author": "Craig", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989469343382", "anchor": "fb-989469343382", "service": "fb", "text": "On the issue that I care less about, I find this L/R logic amusing; quoting from the OP with just a couple of word changes: \u201cThe term [Larks/Ravens] doesn't mean anything useful to a newcomer, while [Ladies/Gents] \u2026 Since this is a descriptive term I think it's a solid improvement.\u201d", "timestamp": "1555118124"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989469343382&reply_comment_id=989476264512", "anchor": "fb-989469343382_989476264512", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Craig at our dance it's common for anyone to dance any role, so Ladies/Gents is actively misleading. Larks/Ravens has L for the person on the left and R for the person on the right, so unlike Ladies/Gents it helps remind people which side to finish the swing on.", "timestamp": "1555122105"}, {"author": "Craig", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989469343382&reply_comment_id=989492921132", "anchor": "fb-989469343382_989492921132", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Sorry, Jeff, after a couple of edits, I deleted my reply. I said above that I found your logic amusing \u2026 guess I\u2019m really not all that interested in the issue itself, issue of Larks/Ravens that is. See, instead, Gypsy, below.", "timestamp": "1555138862"}, {"author": "Craig", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989469348372", "anchor": "fb-989469348372", "service": "fb", "text": "The Romani/Gypsy\u00b9 diaspora, as you\u2019ve noted Jeff, are an historically oppressed peoples. As I see it, this effort to strike-Gypsy from Contra has been at their expense: The transformation of \u201cthe g-word\u201d, as it is now widely spoken, from long-cherished name of a dance figure into a kind of Contra community-wide epithet.
Whether out of ignorance or out of a sense that \u201cThe end justifies the means\u201d, what this initiative in Contra has inflicted upon Gypsy peoples and Gypsy culture is, I think, quite the opposite of social-justice.
\u2014\u2014
\u00b9 Gypsy culture is embraced not just by many Romani, see also: Romnichal, Bashald\u00e9, Romungre, Horchanay, Sinti, and others. Too, there are many people worldwide who identify solely-as.", "timestamp": "1555118129"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989469348372&reply_comment_id=989476379282", "anchor": "fb-989469348372_989476379282", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Craig I understand you feel that way, but the name of a historically oppressed group, even a positive name, does not make a good name for a figure.", "timestamp": "1555122188"}, {"author": "Craig", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989469348372&reply_comment_id=989482047922", "anchor": "fb-989469348372_989482047922", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff, I understand you feel that way, but the demonization of the name of an historically oppressed group \u2014 done in the service of its removal from Contra/ECD \u2014 does not make for social-justice.
I think we\u2019d likely agree that naming, in 2019, a brand new figure \u2018Kaufman\u2019, would be unwise. But it\u2019s REMOVAL from the lexicon, after generations, well, now THAT would be making quite a different statement.
And I hope we agree that were that \u2018social justice initiative\u2019 undertaken via epithet, \u201cthe k-word\u201d k******, that that would be a far greater injustice.", "timestamp": "1555125912"}, {"author": "Janet", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989581608402", "anchor": "fb-989581608402", "service": "fb", "text": "I try not to comment on these posts, but I just have to mention a band I heard of recently - the Gaslight Tinkers. Do people know what those words mean? Gaslight - manipulate someone psychologically into questioning their own sanity. Tinkers - derogatory term or Irish travelers (much like gypsies and not related to the rest of the Irish population). How do they get away with that name but yet gypsy is bad?", "timestamp": "1555191788"}, {"author": "Jane", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989581608402&reply_comment_id=989583729152", "anchor": "fb-989581608402_989583729152", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I endorse anything that Janet says. Janet", "timestamp": "1555192827"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989581608402&reply_comment_id=989586164272", "anchor": "fb-989581608402_989586164272", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Janet if you're trying to convince them to change their name this isn't an especially useful place to post", "timestamp": "1555194071"}, {"author": "Janet", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989581608402&reply_comment_id=989589966652", "anchor": "fb-989581608402_989589966652", "service": "fb", "text": "→ No, I'm not at all. My point is, those words have different meanings as well, and so does gypsy. Words can have more than one meaning and just because some people use gypsy in a derogatory fashion, that does not mean it is always such.", "timestamp": "1555196571"}, {"author": "Janet", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989581608402&reply_comment_id=989591453672", "anchor": "fb-989581608402_989591453672", "service": "fb", "text": "→ All you SJW have done is divide the contra community. You are not doing anything effective to actually help the gypsy community. I you want to do something effective, go over to Europe and fight their wars with them. Go to Pennsylvania and stand up to the bullies who chased them out of their homes (who, by the way didn't call them gypsies anyway). Do something to actually help people who need help. Changing a word in a dnace that most of the world hasn't heard of does nothing to help. It only makes you feel good, it is your little pat on the back that you think you are doing something good. But, now we have people who won't go to dances where gypsies are called, who won't go if they aren't called, people who won't go if gents/ladies is used, or won't go if larks/ravens is used. The dance community is fragmenting and people are walking away. And a community divided ... cannot stand", "timestamp": "1555198079"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989581608402&reply_comment_id=989602321892", "anchor": "fb-989581608402_989602321892", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Janet I agree that switching from \"gypsy\" to \"right shoulder round\" doesn't do very much to help the gypsy community, and that if you made a list of \"what are the most effective things I could do to help them\" this wouldn't even register. Similarly \"what are the most effective ways I could make the world better\" *is* a question I care a lot about, and I agree that renaming the term isn't important in the scheme of things.
On the other hand, regardless of whether \"gypsy\" is a positive or negative term in this context or in general, we shouldn't have a figure named after a historically oppressed group. In \"right shoulder round\" we have a term that is clearer for newcomers while also working well for experienced dancers, and I think we're much more likely to end up with a united contra community with moving to \"right shoulder round\" than with sticking with \"gypsy\".", "timestamp": "1555204687"}, {"author": "Janet", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989581608402&reply_comment_id=989604068392", "anchor": "fb-989581608402_989604068392", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman - as has been mentioned, your alternative term has proven to not be a valid substitute, as it looses the eye contact, or even facing your partner. Every single dance I have been to where that has been used, even experienced dances just do a do-si-do, which is awkward at best, and messes up the choreography at worst. At a major dance weekend with about 400 experienced dancers, a caller had to get down on the floor and demonstrate a move because she wouldn't say \"it's just a gypsy\". And, as to my original point - just because gypsy is a word that is used to represent an oppressed community (sometimes in a negative sense, sometimes positive), it is not the only definition of the word, just like tinker is not just a group of Irish Travelers, and Gaslighting is not just manipulating people.", "timestamp": "1555205668"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989581608402&reply_comment_id=989611458582", "anchor": "fb-989581608402_989611458582", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Janet it seems like a central part of our disagreement here is based on very different experiences with \"right shoulder round\" at dances. My regular dance uses it, and the last three weekends/festivals I've been to used it as well. I don't think I've ever been in a hall where people thought the caller was trying to cue a do-si-do. I'm not really sure where this difference is coming from, and it's surprising to me.
(I wasn't sure about what you meant by your first sentence: are you just saying that in your experience people stop doing eye contact and facing their partner when they hear \"right shoulder round\", or that there's something about the term \"gypsy\" itself that leads to eye contact? I'm guessing the former, but if I'm misunderstanding let me know!)
I do think callers should be willing to say \"gypsy\" during the transition period: even if one thinks that gypsy is an extremely harmful term to use, if you're trying to replace it the number one priority needs to be that dancers have a good experience with the new terms. Refusing to say \"gypsy\" when faced with a hall full of dancers who aren't understanding is not helpful.
When you say there are other meanings of the term \"gypsy\" that don't have to do with the ethnicity, what are you referring to?", "timestamp": "1555208198"}, {"author": "Janet", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989581608402&reply_comment_id=989618409652", "anchor": "fb-989581608402_989618409652", "service": "fb", "text": "→ According to the dictionary, there are 8 definitions of the word gypsy, 5 of them lowercase and not related to the Romani people:
a member of a nomadic, Caucasoid people of generally swarthy complexion, who migrated originally from India, settling in various parts of Asia, Europe, and, most recently, North America.
Romany; the language of the Gypsies.
( lowercase ) a person held to resemble a gypsy, especially in physical characteristics or in a traditionally ascribed freedom or inclination to move from place to place.
( lowercase ) Informal . gypsy cab.
( lowercase ) Informal . an independent, usually nonunion trucker, hauler, operator, etc.
( lowercase ) Slang . a chorus dancer, especially in the Broadway theater.
adjective
of or relating to the Gypsies.
( lowercase ) Informal . working independently or without a license:
gypsy truckers.
\"(I wasn't sure about what you meant by your first sentence: \" - the former. And this is emphasized by callers who are now also unwilling to encourage eye contact or anything at all that might make anyone in the world feel uncomfortable", "timestamp": "1555213607"}, {"author": "Janet", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989581608402&reply_comment_id=989619352762", "anchor": "fb-989581608402_989619352762", "service": "fb", "text": "→ And that is just in English. I know you are aware that in gaelic the word means \"to gaze\" (gasp - a verb, in the way that it is used in dance) and in Arabic it means pocket. These are the two most likely origins for Morris Dancing, where the move originated. Yes, in gaelic it is pronounced with a hard g. You and I don't know how it was pronounced when it was first used in Morris dancing.", "timestamp": "1555214547"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989581608402&reply_comment_id=989671343572", "anchor": "fb-989581608402_989671343572", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Janet \"According to the dictionary, there are 8 definitions of the word gypsy, 5 of them lowercase and not related to the Romani people\"
Reading these definitions I'm not sure I agree with your characterization. They all sound to me like they are derived from associations with gypsies. While I haven't looked into their etymologies I would be quite surprised if they had a different origin.", "timestamp": "1555257985"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989581608402&reply_comment_id=989671662932", "anchor": "fb-989581608402_989671662932", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Janet \"this is emphasized by callers who are now also unwilling to encourage eye contact or anything at all that might make anyone in the world feel uncomfortable\"
In my experience this predates trying to find a replacement for \"gypsy\", though it's supported by a lot of the same people. I don't think callers trying to make it clear that eye contact is optional is related to the change of terms, beyond that they're both partially motivated by concern about making people uncomfortable.", "timestamp": "1555258178"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989581608402&reply_comment_id=989679397432", "anchor": "fb-989581608402_989679397432", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Janet \"I know you are aware that in gaelic the word means \"to gaze\" (gasp - a verb, in the way that it is used in dance)\"
While gypsies are now danced with heavy eye contact, that only goes back to the 1980s or so. Go back farther and you see Cecil Sharp with \"whole gip facing centre\" (like gypsy now, and could have potentially had eye contact) and \"whole gip facing outwards\" (which we don't do anymore, but clearly couldn't have been about eye contact).
(As for it meaning pocket or gypsum in Arabic I don't think there's any reason to think these are the origin)", "timestamp": "1555263195"}, {"author": "Craig", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989700924292", "anchor": "fb-989700924292", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff, never mind \u201cdoesn't do very much to help the gypsy community\u201d \u2014 because of what has taken place these past few years within our community, I believe we have inflicted harm toward the peoples who ethnically identify-as and/or culturally identify-within.
This faux social-justice quest to rid Contra of Gypsy has divided our community \u2014 and no doubt has helped make the discussion of Larks/Ravens that much more contentious. Because, in case you\u2019ve not noticed, it is generally the same bunch pushing both apple-carts.
First, we are not talking about naming a new figure, we are talking about excising/striking from the lexicon our (long) historical use of Gypsy in Contra/ECD. How long? At least 100 years (for those who credit C. Sharp) to upwards of 300+ years (for those who think that the figure might have gotten its name from the first published dance to (possibly, yeah, even that is argued and unknown) contain the figure. That\u2019d be \u201cThe Spanish Gypsy\u201d [Jeepsie, Gipsy] first published by Playford in 1651. Let\u2019s please not argue which century! Or the tea-leaves inherent in attempting to decipher Playford!
When-and-how it arrived in our beloved dance-form is unknown, and almost certainly unknowable, Lost to the ages. Long in use in Contra/ECD, and, there is no evidence that Gypsy arrived as the name of a dance figure via any sort of ill-intent.
Why does its historical-context matter?
Were a university to decide against naming its brand new science center \u201cCopernicus\u201d, that\u2019d be one thing. But were that university to send workers up the scaffolding with jackhammers to blast away the chiseled \u201cCopernicus\u201d \u2014 which had adorned the facade above the granite columns of a century(s) old building \u2014 well, that would be a rather different matter. \u201cCopernicus\u201d would have to be deemed deeply shameful, something So Awful, for that to take place. And for certain, would be seen by all as such, post strike-and-replace.
Neither the figure nor the peoples should be inflicted with That Legacy of Contra\u2019s late-2010s \u201csocial justice\u201d era.
Secondly, in these times of social media SJW roaming the countryside, it was all but inevitable that \ud835\udc7b\ud835\udc89\ud835\udc86 \ud835\udc7e\ud835\udc82\ud835\udc9a in which this social-justice initiative would be waged would be the worst of the worst.
(Jeff, you were upset with my referencing this in my previous posts, so I won\u2019t get into it again here. Folks can scroll up to the subthread near the top {Jay}, and my previous subthread.)
No. Switching from Gypsy to Right-Shoulder-Round doesn't do very much to help the Gypsy peoples, we have, instead, done harm in our quest of strike-and-replace.
Leave Gypsy in Contra. There are plenty of more appropriate outlets for your social justice convictions.
\u2014\u2014
@ Jeff Kaufman
\u275d
I agree that switching from \"gypsy\" to \"right shoulder round\" doesn't do very much to help the gypsy community, and that if you made a list of \"what are the most effective things I could do to help them\" this wouldn't even register. Similarly \"what are the most effective ways I could make the world better\" *is* a question I care a lot about, and I agree that renaming the term isn't important in the scheme of things.
On the other hand, regardless of whether \"gypsy\" is a positive or negative term in this context or in general, we shouldn't have a figure named after a historically oppressed group. In \"right shoulder round\" we have a term that is clearer for newcomers while also working well for experienced dancers, and I think we're much more likely to end up with a united contra community with moving to \"right shoulder round\" than with sticking with \"gypsy\".
\u275e
(Jeff, This is the entirety of a single reply of yours in a subthread. As the topic of that subthread has transitioned more to Gaelic, Arabic and diagrams, I decided to post a new comment rather than reply there. If anyone suspects that I\u2019ve taken anything \u2018out of context\u2019 they can read the subthread {Janet} one comment up.)", "timestamp": "1555274836"}, {"author": "Lauren", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989760135632", "anchor": "fb-989760135632", "service": "fb", "text": "Well, 1 thing this switch of terms has done is reveal real disappointing attitudes on the dance floor. And that's only revealing what was already present, but hidden. And now we must figure out how to handle those attitudes, now that they are unveiled & apparent.
As a caller, I enjoy making dancing accessible to many levels of dancers, including those who just walked in for the first time. It's a constant game of discovery: which words are the most useful? Which are too much, and not useful?
In the same way that \"right & left thru\" is a fast, descriptive name of a move, so is \"right shoulder 'round.\" That's a choice I've made. I find it sensible. Others may disagree, and that's fine. I've never had an explicit request from a board which hired me to be sure to use the word \"Gypsy.\" If so, I'd just avoid that move for the evening. No sweat, simple solution. But that request has never happened.
Just as some callers still refer to one's neighbor as one's \"corner,\" even during a contra dance, we deal. I don't prefer the use of \"corner\" during a contra, rather than \"neighbor.\" I find it weird & confusing. Are we doing contra corners? No? Then...why say \"corner?\"
But hey, not my call, not my evening to make the choice. I seriously don't get mad about it. I shrug, I adapt, and I choose to keep dancing and have a nice time with the folks on the floor.
If I've got a problem with the caller's choice, and no harm is actively done in that moment, then I can bring my issue up privately, later. With the caller & the board. Or with an in-person get-together. Or a phone call, etc. Something that requires voice-to-voice interaction, first names, and a healthily open conflict. No hiding behind a keyboard to tell 1 person in particular that you've got a problem with them & their calling. Conflict itself isn't bad, it's how one goes about it.
I'd never dream of shouting, booing, or snarling up at the caller from the dance floor. But, Alas! I've been fortunate not to experience outright booing as a caller, but some communities now have a reputation of booing the caller for choosing \"right shoulder 'round.\" I find that positively shocking. Yet, it happens. Yikes. What a sad revelation.
Only at certain dances do I hear dancers shout from the floor, \"You mean GYPSY! Just say GYPSY!\" And yes, that was directed at me. In the moment of the walkthru. Disrupting the learning process.
I've seen experienced dancers pull new dancers aside to lecture them on how things USED to be. Interrupting dancers who are learning for the first time. During a walkthru. Simply because I, the caller, said, \"right shoulder round.\" Then, they miss the walkthru, end up confused, and get a whole slew of grumps, sighs, and oh-it-was-so-much-better-years-ago-you-should-have-seen-us-then from dancers who are miffed that a caller made a choice they don't care for. I've watched this unfold from the stage.
I'll avoid the move altogether at those dances in the future, and I don't ask to call there. I wait until they ask me. Because good golly, why? I experience higher stress levels at these places, because now I know they're not as nice as I'd thought them to be in years past. It's too bad when a few angry apples make it stressful for the bunch.
Think those newbies come back? Of course not. Who would want to return to a first impression of grumpy, snippy folks?
That has been a real bummer. It's certainly lessened my enthusiasm within the community. I've been disenchanted, in a way.
Not completely disenchanted, of course. Just a bit. Thankfully, the community is still full of strong, kind, thoughtful individuals. I'm simply pointing out the discouraging feelings I've experienced through this whole calling terminology shift. If folks are unhappy with change, I hope they handle that conflict better.
Note: I leave my experience working with, living in, and doing things like establishing a kindergarten in a Roma community overseas - out of my little explanation above, because it shouldn't matter in reference to the behaviors I mention there. Courtesy should not demand that level of interpersonal intimacy. Folks shouldn't need my personal background to behave respectfully.
But, now I'll bring it up.
I have actual experience in how racism in different parts of the world transforms the lives & opportunities of people, based upon their appearance, their mother tongue, their tribe, and what they are called. And it is a big deal. Babies are abandoned & left to die because they are thought to be \"gypsy.\" Children are kicked out of public school, first grade mind you, for being 'stupid liars,' because they speak a different first language at home, dress differently, & have darker skin, and must be \"gypsy.\"
So, as I have held some of these children in my arms, I am especially disgusted to hear shouting from the floor about the word. It is a gut-wrenching disappointment in the dance world I love so dearly. But, my words are not taken seriously, perhaps due to my pale face and waspy ancestry. Who knows. I don't much care why.
The shouting, grumbling, and snarling are impolite and ineffective strategies. It also reveals a cruelty & ignorance that sends flashing memories of those babies I loved through my mind. And I'm left with a sour feeling, disappointed in groups I thought were just...nicer people.
I'm thankful it is a rarity of my own calling experience. And I offer the observation that I have not had 1 person my own age, or younger, behave in this way while I have been the caller. (the under 40 crowd) Nor have I heard a woman shouting up at me about it from the floor.
(Notice what I said. I did not say, \"no woman has ever done this ever.\" I did not write, \"no young person has every booed a caller ever.\" That is not what I wrote. Thanks for taking time to notice the writing choices made.)
In conclusion, I hope the gents of my father's age+ can help one another, gently correct one another, and be thoughtful about what they are actually accomplishing when noticeably angry & spewing forth with their unbridled feelings - during an evening of dance. There are long-term consequences of relationship. There are people I no longer consider terribly friendly folks, due to these observed behaviors.
Thanks to everybody. I think that's all I have to say about that.", "timestamp": "1555305605"}, {"author": "Janet", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989760135632&reply_comment_id=989760574752", "anchor": "fb-989760135632_989760574752", "service": "fb", "text": "→ lt;dr - actually I did read, just wayyy to much to say in response, and no point in saying any of it. It all falls on deaf ears.", "timestamp": "1555306154"}, {"author": "Janet", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989760135632&reply_comment_id=989761303292", "anchor": "fb-989760135632_989761303292", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Nope, can't leave that along. Your page and a half post - repsonded ... <snip> I enjoy making dancing accessible to many levels of dancers, including those who just walked in for the first time. It's a constant game of discovery: which words are the most useful? Which are too much, and not useful? <snip>
Accessible \u2026 hmm, your idea of assessible and mine must be very different. No, I don\u2019t think that changing the name of a dance move that a beginner has never heard of makes any difference one way or another to the accessibility of a dance. What I do think affects the accessibility of the dance is this ridiculous notion of \u201cdance with who\u2019s comin\u2019 at you\u201d. Sometimes, the wrong person is coming out you, because they are new and they are not in the right place. And then they lose their partner and they are lost, confused and their new experienced \u201chelpful\u201d partner is laughing about how funny it is that they have a new partner now. Meanwhile, new person thinks they did something wrong.
<snip>fast, descriptive name of a move, so is \"right shoulder 'round.\" <snip>
Descriptive \u2013 maybe \u2013 we have already made the point that EXPERIENCED dancers don\u2019t do this right, so how can they help beginners? Fast? Seriously? How is \u201cright shoulder \u2018round\u201d faster than \u201cgypsy\u201d? Four syllables \u2013 two syllables. Um, yeah. Pretty sure that\u2019s not faster. You chose to not use gypsy \u2013 but don\u2019t try to pretend that it isn\u2019t all political
<snip> I'd never dream of shouting, booing, or snarling up at the caller from the dance floor. But, Alas! I've been fortunate not to experience outright booing as a caller, but some communities now have a reputation of booing the caller for choosing \"right shoulder 'round.\" I find that positively shocking. Yet, it happens. Yikes. What a sad revelation. <snip>
Guess what \u2013 this goes both ways. I have in fact seen callers booed for using gypsy (gypsy \u2013 NOT Gypsy). I have also seen callers with a group of experienced dancers who would not say gypsy (ironically, the name of the dance had gypsy in it) and they were so confused until finally someone said \u201cdo you mean gypsy\u201d. To which the caller sighed very loudly and said \u201cYES\u201d very snippedly \u2013 oh so professional.
<snip> Only at certain dances do I hear dancers shout from the floor, \"You mean GYPSY! Just say GYPSY!\" And yes, that was directed at me. In the moment of the walkthru. Disrupting the learning process. <snip>
I personally would never yell at a caller from the floor, that\u2019s just not me. But, have been in situations where everyone around me was confused and I would say \u201cshe means gypsy\u201d and all the lights went on. If people are confused \u2013 use the freaking word they know.
<snip> I've seen experienced dancers pull new dancers aside to lecture them on how things USED to be. Interrupting dancers who are learning for the first time. During a walkthru. <snip>
I agree that this is inappropriate, just as much as any experienced dancer who tries to teach while the caller is teaching. That is never acceptable.
<snip> It's too bad when a few angry apples make it stressful for the bunch. <snip>
It\u2019s too bad when a few people with a political agenda make it stressful for the bunch
<snip> Think those newbies come back? Of course not. Who would want to return to a first impression of grumpy, snippy folks? <snip>
Think that confused beginners who have no idea what they did wrong come back? Of course not \u2013 \u201cobviously\u201d they can\u2019t do this.
<snip. But, now I'll bring it up.
I have actual experience in how racism in different parts of the world transforms the lives & opportunities of people, based upon their appearance, their mother tongue, their tribe, and what they are called. And it is a big deal. Babies are abandoned & left to die because they are thought to be \"gypsy.\" Children are kicked out of public school, first grade mind you, for being 'stupid liars,' because they speak a different first language at home, dress differently, & have darker skin, and must be \"gypsy.\"
So, as I have held some of these children in my arms, I am especially disgusted to hear shouting from the floor about the word. It is a gut-wrenching disappointment in the dance world I love so dearly. But, my words are not taken seriously, perhaps due to my pale face and waspy ancestry. Who knows. I don't much care why. <snip>
Racism against the gypsy community is bad, no argument there. But, it is not because they are called gypsies. In fact, in most cases they are NOT called gypsies. It is because they are different. They look different, they act different, and this scares people. It doesn\u2019t matter what you call them, they are still going to be persecuted and killed. Yes, they are being killed \u2013 every single day in some parts of the world. The Nazi movement hasn\u2019t ended in some areas and they are still being targeted. As a member of the Roma Nation movement, I see the articles about it every day. But they gypsies themselves refer to themselves as gypsies. Not the people that are attacking them. The word is not making a difference. Nothing is going to make a difference until people are educated about differences in people and cultures and accept this.
<snip> disappointed in groups I thought were just...nicer people. <snip>
You don\u2019t think I\u2019m nice \u2013 ok \u2013 I have been called much worse by people I cared much more about.", "timestamp": "1555307540"}, {"author": "Lauren", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989760135632&reply_comment_id=989761562772", "anchor": "fb-989760135632_989761562772", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Goodness. We process information quite differently. Oh, well.", "timestamp": "1555308224"}, {"author": "Lauren", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989760135632&reply_comment_id=989761637622", "anchor": "fb-989760135632_989761637622", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Sounds like we all agree that shouting at & booing the caller is not very nice. How that devolves into directly name-calling one another in this thread, that part is lost on me.
I thought I presented a calm, somewhat mournful reflexion. I see that how one reads & processes info via social media can go in many an angry direction. As it was immediately taken as a personal attack, and apparently name-calling, I'm not at all offended if my comment is deleted. I won't follow up or private message about it, etc., as I would find that a perfected fine management choice. Whatever works best for keeping the thread calm & respectful.", "timestamp": "1555308400"}, {"author": "Keith", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989771363132", "anchor": "fb-989771363132", "service": "fb", "text": "So glad to move to \"right shoulder round\"! I'm a proud SJW, because, well, I believe in fighting for social justice. The behavior and attitude described (and displayed) in this thread suggests that renaming outdated terms has sparked healthy conflict. I want to be a part of a dancing community concerned with respect and caring, willing to grow and adapt.", "timestamp": "1555329495"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989771363132&reply_comment_id=989783234342", "anchor": "fb-989771363132_989783234342", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I'm not entirely sure that the conflict can be termed \"healthy\".", "timestamp": "1555338732"}, {"author": "Craig", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989771363132&reply_comment_id=989791562652", "anchor": "fb-989771363132_989791562652", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Ridding Contra of Gypsy is not social-justice. Keith, I hope there is more to your SJW c.v. than Right-Shoulder-Round.", "timestamp": "1555344805"}, {"author": "Keith", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989771363132&reply_comment_id=989804122482", "anchor": "fb-989771363132_989804122482", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Craig I hope so too!", "timestamp": "1555352303"}, {"author": "Craig", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989771363132&reply_comment_id=989807151412", "anchor": "fb-989771363132_989807151412", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Great, Keith ! Then removing the line-item \u201cRidding Contra of Gypsy\u201d won\u2019t have any significant impact on your SJW c.v.", "timestamp": "1555353455"}, {"author": "Lisa", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989794756252", "anchor": "fb-989794756252", "service": "fb", "text": "A few years ago, Linda Leslie and I were planning a birthday dance that Linda was MCing for Jim Babcock and myself. We were discussing terminology. The debate about the word gypsy was in full swing already. I had always felt uncomfortable with it.
The dance move was one of Linda's favorites, but for a long time she had felt uncomfortable using the word \"gypsy\". She told me that about five years previously she had stopped calling any dances with the word in it. She had an enormous amount of dances she could call, so it wasn't difficult to do.", "timestamp": "1555347049"}, {"author": "Craig", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989976227582", "anchor": "fb-989976227582", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff, first, thank you for hosting this thread. I do, of course, realize that you\u2019d have preferred just lots of <3 tossed at Right-Shoulder-Round.
Over several years now too many an OP has deleted a thread on the topic of Gypsy when it has gone not as they\u2019d hoped. Kudos to you for not being one of them.
No one has addressed any of my arguments against the rid Contra of Gypsy initiative so I thought I\u2019d finish up here by addressing the argument that you\u2019ve made (several times),
\u275d
Being the name of a historically oppressed group of people, over the past few years there's been a push to switch away from the term. [in the OP]
It being a term for an oppressed group is enough reason to move away from it. [reply to Feldman]
I understand you feel that way, but the name of a historically oppressed group, even a positive name, does not make a good name for a figure. [reply to Stockert]
On the other hand, regardless of whether \"gypsy\" is a positive or negative term in this context or in general, we shouldn't have a figure named after a historically oppressed group. [reply to Bertog]
\u275e
\u25bc continues next comment", "timestamp": "1555457075"}, {"author": "Craig", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989976257522", "anchor": "fb-989976257522", "service": "fb", "text": "Why not, Jeff? Why not the name of an historically oppressed group? Can you think of a more significant honor that Contradancing, as an institution, could bestow-upon (anyone.)
I\u2019d more understand some social-justice initiative to rid Contra of the name of a figure honoring some NOT-oppressed group of people.
Hard for me to imagine you composing a tune or a dance and naming it, \u201cAll Hail the Founding Fathers\u201d,
But \u201cAboriginal Pride\u201d [in Becket formation] or \u201cVedran Smailovi\u0107\u2019s Waltz\u201d \u2014 now that would not surprise me. And you\u2019d have my vote on that.
Contra\u2019s SJW would, perhaps, make for less-faux had they instead gone after Hull\u2019s Victory\u00b9
Sadly, what this strike & replace initiative has saddled us with is a kind of community-wide epithet: the g-word. That\u2019d be Gypsy, which many worldwide proudly ethnically/culturally identify-as.
This outcome is, I believe, quite the opposite of social-justice.
And in need of un-doing.", "timestamp": "1555457094"}, {"author": "Craig", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=989976257522&reply_comment_id=989976297442", "anchor": "fb-989976257522_989976297442", "service": "fb", "text": "→ \u00b9 \u201cHull\u2019s Victory\u201d, duple/proper, usually danced to the tune of the the same name, it commemorates a naval victory in the War of 1812, the defeat of the HMS Guerriere by the USS Constitution under the command of Isaac Hull on August 19, 1812.
BTW, I\u2019ve nothing at all against Captain Isaac Hull, one of our nation\u2019s storied and brilliant naval commanders.
\u201cEncountering a British squadron in July 1812 off Egg Harbor, New Jersey, Hull escaped through consummate seamanship after three days and nights in one of the most remarkable chases in naval history.\u201d [Encyclopedia Britannica]
In addition to a dance, his namesakes include five U.S. Navy ships and a bridge spanning the Housatonic.", "timestamp": "1555457108"}, {"author": "Dugan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=990046152452", "anchor": "fb-990046152452", "service": "fb", "text": "Based on my own experience getting around as a dancer, it does seem that \"right/left shoulder round\" has become the most popular. After playing with \"gyre,\" and \"spiral,\" I settled on \"right/left shoulder round\" myself for many of the same reasons you list. When I was still saying \"Gypsy,\" I would often teach and prompt it as \"right/left shoulder Gypsy\" when there was any opportunity for the dancers to get the direction wrong. Then with the music I would shorten my prompt to \"right/left shoulder,\" which is what I still do now, but I'm dropping the word \"round\" instead of \"Gypsy.\"", "timestamp": "1555516657"}, {"author": "Dan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=990075284072", "anchor": "fb-990075284072", "service": "fb", "text": "I couldn\u2019t find any mentions yet of new dancers. Whenever a caller mentions a gypsy, if I\u2019m dancing with a new person I have to explain the entire move. If the caller calls a \u201cright shoulder round,\u201d new dancers figure out most of it instinctively. So Romani people aside, I\u2019m in favor of \u201cright shoulder round\u201d (or similar descriptive term) for purely pragmatic reasons.
Also, I just looked this up and it turns out the dance term \u201callemande\u201d comes pretty directly from a word for German people. So the Romani aren\u2019t the only people with a dance move named after them, but I\u2019m against calling it a Gypsy purely because the term confuses new dancers.", "timestamp": "1555531831"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=990075284072&reply_comment_id=990076042552", "anchor": "fb-990075284072_990076042552", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Dan I think changing the name of allemande is less important, since Germans aren't historically oppressed and most people have any connection from \"allemande\" to \"Germans\". But if we wanted to call it \"right hand round\" I'd be totally on board with that from an \"improve the learning curve\" perspective.", "timestamp": "1555532180"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=990075284072&reply_comment_id=990076441752", "anchor": "fb-990075284072_990076441752", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I have often noticed that callers use \"turn by the right\" interchangeably with \"allemande right\", and when I called I think I prompted with \"turn by the right\" more often than \"allemande\" - so this would be no big change since we already have an accepted alternative that is widely in use (and IMHO easier to call).", "timestamp": "1555532463"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=990075284072&reply_comment_id=990077424782", "anchor": "fb-990075284072_990077424782", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Variants like \"partner by the right\" our \"back to the neighbor with a left hand round\" sound very natural to me, especially in a square", "timestamp": "1555533291"}, {"author": "Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=990075284072&reply_comment_id=990102579372", "anchor": "fb-990075284072_990102579372", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Dan \"allemande\" is a corruption of the French \"\u00e0 la main\", meaning, roughly, \"by the hand\". It has nothing to do with Germans.
As opposed to \"Germans\", a nickname for 19th century dance-party games properly known as \"cotillons\".", "timestamp": "1555545795"}, {"author": "Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=990075284072&reply_comment_id=990102778972", "anchor": "fb-990075284072_990102778972", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I'm going to leave this up, but I'm no longer sure it's true. I didn't think the older German dance was related to the contra dance term, but after a tiny bit more research I think I may well be mistaken. I'm certainly uncertain!", "timestamp": "1555545985"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=990075284072&reply_comment_id=990102838852", "anchor": "fb-990075284072_990102838852", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Michael how sure are you? It's also a word in French that means German, and from what I've seen it looks like the \"by the hand\" etymology is clever but not how it happened.", "timestamp": "1555546060"}, {"author": "Dan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=990075284072&reply_comment_id=990103886752", "anchor": "fb-990075284072_990103886752", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Michael You\u2019re right that the french for \u201cby the hand\u201d would make more sense on the surface, but I looked it up and all the sources I can find say it\u2019s a reference to German dancing. Here\u2019s one web site. I\u2019m open to other references, but my current conclusion is the German origin seems to have the most support.", "timestamp": "1555546706"}, {"author": "Craig", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=990075284072&reply_comment_id=990107289932", "anchor": "fb-990075284072_990107289932", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Michael, Jeff, Dan, might we have some 1960s \u201cTwister\u201d contortion or Kabuki dance in this discussion of Allemande? Let\u2019s see: We keep the Contra term connected to colonial powers Germany or France \u201csince they aren't historically oppressed\u201d \u2014 but we drive from Contra in shame the term connected to the long-persecuted peoples that left northern India around the 11th century.", "timestamp": "1555548760"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=990075284072&reply_comment_id=990110293912", "anchor": "fb-990075284072_990110293912", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Craig I don't see any contortion. Removing \"allemande\" is fine with me. I do think it's less important, primarily because very few dancers will hear \"allemande\" and think \"oh, that's French for 'German'\".", "timestamp": "1555550228"}, {"author": "Craig", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=990075284072&reply_comment_id=990118727012", "anchor": "fb-990075284072_990118727012", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff, \u201cis fine by me\u201d kind of sidesteps the point. But I guess if you were willing to discuss (that) you would have done so in one of my several long comments Re Gypsy, above.
Still, does surprise me a little, that you don\u2019t see the irony (or hypocrisy), which is there whether or not anyone thinks (that\u2019s French or German.)", "timestamp": "1555552361"}, {"author": "Dugan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=990075284072&reply_comment_id=990132639132", "anchor": "fb-990075284072_990132639132", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Craig, I think you fundamentally misunderstand the decentralized folk process inherent to contra dance. If you want to be involved in making sweeping decisions that others must follow, I recommend you start dancing Modern Western Square Dance and join CALLERLAB.", "timestamp": "1555557737"}, {"author": "Craig", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=990075284072&reply_comment_id=990139071242", "anchor": "fb-990075284072_990139071242", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Dugan, Kindly explain how my use of the pen to convey my thoughts and reasoned argument \u2014 which, by the way, is the sum total of all of my \u201cpower\u201d to influence decisions in our community \u2014 is me, quote: \u201cmaking sweeping decisions that others must follow.\u201d
And what (are you thinking) could possibly be more \u201cdecentralized folk process\u201d than something such as an open Contra forum, or this thread?", "timestamp": "1555563850"}, {"author": "Dugan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=990075284072&reply_comment_id=990159729842", "anchor": "fb-990075284072_990159729842", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Craig, it just seems from your badgering comments on this post that you would rather stifle others' discussion of word choice with an overarching decision than allow callers and organizers to make decisions that are best suited to themselves and their communities. Perhaps I'm reading too much into your words.", "timestamp": "1555593826"}, {"author": "Dugan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=990075284072&reply_comment_id=990160927442", "anchor": "fb-990075284072_990160927442", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Craig, specifically, your \"sidesteps the point\" comment seemed to imply that some kind of decision needed to be made that others would need to follow.", "timestamp": "1555594826"}, {"author": "Craig", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=990075284072&reply_comment_id=990192309552", "anchor": "fb-990075284072_990192309552", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Dugan, Before I respond to what you\u2019ve said in your last two replies; just to be clear,
Re: \u201cit just seems from your badgering comments on this post [\u2026] specifically, your \"sidesteps the point\" comment seemed to imply that some kind of decision needed to be made that others would need to follow.\u201d
So. You want me to give up Contra dancing\u2014and \u201cstart dancing Modern Western Square Dance and join CALLERLAB\u201d [whatever that is] because I said to Jeff \u201ckind of sidesteps the point\u201d (in this little subthread/side-discussion of Allemande.)
Do I understand you correctly?", "timestamp": "1555610791"}, {"author": "Craig", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=990075284072&reply_comment_id=990192339492", "anchor": "fb-990075284072_990192339492", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Or, in your view, does my \u201cbadgering\u201d extend to my 3 substantial COMMENTS (here for handy reference) that begin:
1. The Romani/Gypsy\u00b9 diaspora, as you\u2019ve noted Jeff, are an historically oppressed peoples. As I see it, this effort to strike-Gypsy from Contra has been at their expense:
2. Jeff, never mind \u201cdoesn't do very much to help the gypsy community\u201d \u2014 because of what has taken place these past few years within our community, I believe we have inflicted harm toward the peoples who ethnically identify-as and/or culturally identify-within.
3. Why not, Jeff? Why not the name of an historically oppressed group? Can you think of a more significant honor that Contradancing, as an institution, could bestow-upon (anyone.)
Dugan, Please clarify, and then I will respond to the content of what you\u2019ve just said in your replies. Thanks.", "timestamp": "1555610808"}, {"author": "Craig", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=990075284072&reply_comment_id=990193462242", "anchor": "fb-990075284072_990193462242", "service": "fb", "text": "→ PS, In case you missed it buried in subthread {Feldman} up near the top, my replies there are fair-game too, in any sort of \u2018excommunicate Craig from Contra\u2019 consideration.", "timestamp": "1555611497"}, {"author": "Dugan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=990075284072&reply_comment_id=990193596972", "anchor": "fb-990075284072_990193596972", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Craig, don't take anything I've said to imply that I think you should be excommunicated from contra. My mention of Modern Western Square Dance was in reference to their system of having a centralized authority (CALLERLAB) who decides what figures should be called. By contrast, contra has no such authority. I was getting the impression from your replies to this thread about allemande and your replies to other comments about right/left shoulder round that you were either upset that a decision had been made without you concerning alternatives to \"Gypsy\" or that others were unwilling to decide the need for alternatives to \"allemande.\" Since there is no decision-making body in contra dance to convince of anything, I wanted to point that out to you.", "timestamp": "1555611670"}, {"author": "Dugan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=990075284072&reply_comment_id=990193681802", "anchor": "fb-990075284072_990193681802", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Craig, and yes, as far as tone can be communicated via Facebook comments and replies, your tone in this post has mostly come across to me as badgering.", "timestamp": "1555611744"}, {"author": "Craig", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=990075284072&reply_comment_id=990197444262", "anchor": "fb-990075284072_990197444262", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Dugan, again, when you say \u201cthis post\u201d are you referring to THIS THREAD ?
Are you referring to my comments #1, 2 & 3 (mentioned in my just-above reply to you) as \u201cbadgering\u201d ?
And if so, in your view, am I badgering Jeff? You? The entire Contra community?
And, if the latter, is it your contention that our entire community aligns with Your View of the need to rid Contra of Gypsy?
[I\u2019ve got some thoughts, still pending, on what you\u2019ve said in your earlier replies; but you and I need some \u2018clearness\u2019 on these points, first. Thanks]", "timestamp": "1555614388"}, {"author": "Dugan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=990075284072&reply_comment_id=990215542992", "anchor": "fb-990075284072_990215542992", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Craig, when I used the phrase \"this post,\" I was referring to other comments of yours to the post, as well as your replies to others' comments. Examples that come across to me as you badgering other people include you referring to someone's SJW c.v. (comes across to me as dismissive) and putting words in my mouth (suggesting that I said anything about excommunicating you).", "timestamp": "1555622641"}, {"author": "Dugan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=990075284072&reply_comment_id=990215677722", "anchor": "fb-990075284072_990215677722", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Craig, I clearly have made no such contention that everyone in the contra community agrees with me. Your earlier replies and comments (example from you above: \"we are not talking about naming a new figure, we are talking about excising/striking from the lexicon our (long) historical use of Gypsy in Contra/ECD\") seem to be making the complaint that a decision has been made for the contra community that you don't like. My earlier replies to you intend to point out that there is no organizational body capable of that. Who has excised/stricken anything from the lexicon? Contra has no official lexicon from which a word can be excised/stricken.", "timestamp": "1555622693"}, {"author": "Craig", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=990075284072&reply_comment_id=990222868312", "anchor": "fb-990075284072_990222868312", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Dugan, thank you for your reply. Okay, I see your point Re my use of \u2018excommunicate\u2019 \u2014 as we both know, tone is hard to gauge here on Facebook; I guess your remark was sort of received as: \u201cI recommend you start dancing Modern Western Square Dance.\u201d [as I myself can\u2019t remove you from the community]
Re: My reference to \u201cSJW c.v.\u201d \u2014 I hear your criticism, but beg to differ. Keith agreed with me (\u201cI hope so too!\u201d) \u2014 I don\u2019t see my remark as \u2018dismissive\u2019 \u2026 should anyone care to consider it in context, see the {Ericson} comment that begins: So glad to move to \"right shoulder round\"! I'm a proud SJW, because, well, I believe in fighting for social justice.
Re: \u201cWho has excised/stricken anything from the lexicon?\u201d \u2014 that has happened caller by caller, dance by dance. Fair enough. But THE WAY in which those \u2018gains\u2019 were achieved; THE WAY in which Rid Contra of Gypsy has been waged; over the course of ~4 years; see my previous posts throughout this thread; I believe I used the term \u2018ill-gotten\u2019 in my earlier convo with Jeff.
To the following question that I posed to you: \u201cAre you referring to my comments #1, 2 & 3 (mentioned in my just-above reply to you) as \u201cbadgering\u201d ? \u2014 you have not explicitly said; I\u2019ll interpret that as, NO, you do not find my (three substantial) comments badgering.
Those thoughts of mine \u2018pending\u2019 your earlier replies \u2014 I will post them right now below\u2026
\u2014\u2014
EDIT
p.s. Dugan, it just occurs to me, Regarding my \u2018tone interpretation\u2019 of (Craig, why don\u2019t you go try MWSD); probably influenced by the aforementioned Keith comment, just above.
Keith of c.v. fame originally ended that comment: \u201cIf some people or groups choose to leave, we'll be left with a more welcoming dance community.\u201d (viewable if you open \u2018Edited\u2019)", "timestamp": "1555626047"}, {"author": "Craig", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=990075284072&reply_comment_id=990222903242", "anchor": "fb-990075284072_990222903242", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Dugan, well, now that\u2019s rich: \u201cIf you want to be involved in making sweeping decisions that others must follow [\u2026] that you would rather stifle others' discussion of word choice with an overarching decision [\u2026]\u201d
You, a caller, with the \u2018power of the MIC\u2019, lecturing me, with only a pen and standard-issue Mac keyboard, about \u201csweeping decisions\u201d and the \u2018power\u2019 to impose my will on our community. You, an organizer, with the power to put-into Your dance\u2019s \u201crecommendations\u201d something like:
\u275d
We use \"right shoulder round\" instead of \"gypsy\" \u207d\u00b9\u207e [or]
G***y is an ethnic slur. Please rename this move when calling for our dance. [\u2026] Callers who cannot honor this request will not be invited back.\u207d\u00b2\u207e
\u275e
(And, thanks, but, yeah, after 35 years, I am, actually, aware that there is no central authority that dictates dance terms in Contra.)", "timestamp": "1555626063"}, {"author": "Craig", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=990075284072&reply_comment_id=990222943162", "anchor": "fb-990075284072_990222943162", "service": "fb", "text": "→ On the topic of who is dictating to whom, We\u2019ve yet to see the following handed down from organizers to callers (though perhaps some dance governing-board shall, someday),
Our dance believes that the ongoing initiative to rid Contra of Gypsy is harmful \u2014 harmful both to our community and to the long-persecuted peoples, many of them proud of their Gypsy heritage and culture. Our dance\u2019s policy is to require at least three dances each evening that include the figure, with the caller using the term, Gypsy.
\u2014\u2014
\u00b9 From BIDA\u2019s \u201cCaller Welcome\u201d page,
\u275d We use \"right shoulder round\" instead of \"gypsy\". For example, \"right shoulder round your neighbor\" or \"walk around your neighbor by the right shoulder\". For the (uncommon) move traditionally called a \"gypsy star\" we usually say \"facing star\". \u275e
\u2014\u2014
\u00b2 On August 15, 2017, in a thread on the topic of Gypsy, at the large public group \u201cContra Dancers\u201d, Tony Parkes replied in a subthread,
\u275d Ron T Blechner I didn't see anything to that effect, but I suspect that's the attitude of the organizers. Unlike the FSGW Sunday dance at Glen Echo (Wash DC area), whose guidelines say (in boldface): \"G***y is an ethnic slur. Please rename this move when calling for our dance. Some suggestions are whimsey or whimsey round, turn by the eyes/two eyed turn, but if you have something else you like, go for it. Callers who cannot honor this request will not be invited back.\" \u275e
As point of reference: the OP of that thread begins:
\u275d Replacing the \"G-word\" \u275e
\u2014\u2014", "timestamp": "1555626090"}, {"author": "Jonah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=990084715172", "anchor": "fb-990084715172", "service": "fb", "text": "What's the benefit of using \"gypsy\" in the transitional period? \"Right shoulder round\" is so descriptive that it won't slow down experienced dancers. I know, because the first time I was at a dance with \"right shoulder round\" (a BIDA dance btw) it didn't even dawn on me til after the walk through that \"gypsy\" had been replaced.", "timestamp": "1555536708"}, {"author": "Jonah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=990084715172&reply_comment_id=990085603392", "anchor": "fb-990084715172_990085603392", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Other than that it will slightly delay the annihilation of contra dancing from the multiverse, of course.", "timestamp": "1555536891"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=990084715172&reply_comment_id=990091366842", "anchor": "fb-990084715172_990091366842", "service": "fb", "text": "→ If the caller says \"right shoulder round\" and the hall gets it, great! No need to use anything else.
On the other hand, several people have described being in halls where the caller used an alternative term and everyone got confused with the caller tying themselves in knots to communicate \"it's a gypsy, the figure you all know\" without saying \"gypsy\". I wasn't there, I don't know how it went, but my guess is it was something like when at a dance I was at a caller tried to teach a figure as \"ravens allemande left 3/4 while larks pass through across and loop right to meet the ravens in a short wavy line\". People were all over the place until the caller said \"pass through to an ocean wave\". Sometimes even though a descriptive term should be sufficient, using the name that experienced dancers are used to helps a lot. Maybe some of this is people making the reasonable inference of \"well, they can't mean gypsy or they would have said 'gypsy' so they must have meant something else\"?", "timestamp": "1555539801"}, {"author": "Jonah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=990084715172&reply_comment_id=990092275022", "anchor": "fb-990084715172_990092275022", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman Well whatever it was that Adina did worked just fine!", "timestamp": "1555540183"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=990084715172&reply_comment_id=990092913742", "anchor": "fb-990084715172_990092913742", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff, yes, I\u2019ve been in halls on several occasions where the caller struggled to communicate the move \u2014 \u201cit\u2019s a gypsy, the figure you all know\u201d without saying \u201cgypsy.\u201d The people who understand the situation eventually tell the confused experienced dancers what the move is, and what\u2019s going on.", "timestamp": "1555540665"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=990084715172&reply_comment_id=990093083402", "anchor": "fb-990084715172_990093083402", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Experienced callers are better at teaching, so this is more common among new and beginner callers.", "timestamp": "1555540789"}, {"author": "Jonah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=990084715172&reply_comment_id=990093292982", "anchor": "fb-990084715172_990093292982", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Daniel Do callers not usually have to teach the move anyway, for the benefit of new dancers? If so, then it shouldn't matter what it's called as long as it's being taught well. If not, then perhaps it should be--if necessary, treat it like a new or uncommon contra move and teach it in the moment. I don't think it will eat up a lot of extra time.", "timestamp": "1555540954"}, {"author": "Jonah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=990084715172&reply_comment_id=990093607352", "anchor": "fb-990084715172_990093607352", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Btw I think it's far more harmful when callers use ladies and gents as they transition to non gendered terms.", "timestamp": "1555541207"}, {"author": "Jonah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=990084715172&reply_comment_id=990093806952", "anchor": "fb-990084715172_990093806952", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Well maybe not far more harmful, but harmful in the sense that unlike with \"gypsy\" it completely subverts the transition itself.", "timestamp": "1555541404"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=990084715172&reply_comment_id=990095333892", "anchor": "fb-990084715172_990095333892", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Well, callers often do teach it anyway. Better callers are better at teaching. When you get new or inexperienced caller, sometimes that person isn't as good at communicating what the move is. As Jeff said, using the name that experienced dancers are used to is helpful in avoiding a lot of confusion.", "timestamp": "1555542155"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=990084715172&reply_comment_id=990102664202", "anchor": "fb-990084715172_990102664202", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jonah yeah, I don't think using Gents/Ladies to teach Larks/Ravens is great. The very first time a community hears it, maybe, but \"the Lark is on the Left and the Raven is on the Right\" works very well. As you said, these are transitions we're making for pretty different reasons.", "timestamp": "1555545868"}, {"author": "Lisa", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=990084715172&reply_comment_id=990222169712", "anchor": "fb-990084715172_990222169712", "service": "fb", "text": "→ My experience with medium size groups with many experienced dancers has been that it is no problem at all for anyone. But at a small local dance with a high ratio of new dancers I've experienced the new people doing a back to back/do-si-do. Not sure why. Maybe callers need to add \"face to face\" so they get it.", "timestamp": "1555625773"}, {"author": "Dan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/989260955992?comment_id=991456056992", "anchor": "fb-991456056992", "service": "fb", "text": "I accept that gypsy may be a derogatory word for a group of people. It would be a more clear-cut case if that group was common in our US context. I'm neutral about the elimination of the gypsies from contra dance.", "timestamp": "1556414098"}]}