{"items": [{"author": "Ross", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/975452877492?comment_id=975470731712", "anchor": "fb-975470731712", "service": "fb", "text": "Refraining from taking a strong position on the bottom line, I note that this significantly weakens one of your original arguments for having a low (and not judgement-costly) bar for splitting the accusee's attendance: \"That someone feels strongly enough about avoiding someone that they're willing to give up half the dance time/space to do so tells you a lot.\"

In your new position, this signal is instead being read out of (the committee's judgement of) \"credibly\" -- both in the accuser's case and potentially in a counter-accuser's case. So a burden of judgment shifts back onto the committee, with less of it resting on a costly signal generated from the actors themselves.

Now maybe the benefit of giving the accuser the flexibility to attend dances with the accused is worth the committee taking on credibility judgments, but it seems like that trade-off is at least worth making explicit.", "timestamp": "1546642057"}, {"author": "Evan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/975452877492?comment_id=975470731712&reply_comment_id=975472408352", "anchor": "fb-975470731712_975472408352", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I agree.

It sounds like the argument basically boils down to: we don't need to impose so high a cost to achieve credibility in the signal. Are there ways to impose a *reduced* cost?

Randomization is an obvious one with obvious drawbacks (only actually do the split sometimes).

You could do \"John gets X and Sally gets half of Y\".

You could do something like Susan can't come to half of dances, and John can only come to other half if he notifies the relevant committee in advance; requiring that notification might be a tiny-but-relevant hurdle that provides credibility.", "timestamp": "1546642286"}, {"author": "Ross", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/975452877492?comment_id=975470731712&reply_comment_id=975472652862", "anchor": "fb-975470731712_975472652862", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Technical correction: I think your third paragraph should be:
> You could do \"John gets X plus half of Y and Sally gets Y\".", "timestamp": "1546642465"}, {"author": "Evan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/975452877492?comment_id=975470731712&reply_comment_id=975475427302", "anchor": "fb-975470731712_975475427302", "service": "fb", "text": "→ No, it shouldn't.

The argument is \"John asked for X, and was willing to concede Y to Sally. That's a credible signal, so we should give John X.\"

In this case, X is \"Sally can't come to half the dances\" aka \"John gets half the dances as Sally-free environments\". Y is \"John can't come to half the dances\" aka \"Sally gets half the dances as a John-free environment\".", "timestamp": "1546643442"}, {"author": "Ross", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/975452877492?comment_id=975470731712&reply_comment_id=975475696762", "anchor": "fb-975470731712_975475696762", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I was interpreting Jeff's (and your) \"John gets X\" as meaning \"John gets to attend the set of dances X\", not \"John gets the outcome [Sally can't attend dances X]\". I believe that this is the sense in which Jeff meant it.", "timestamp": "1546643609"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/975452877492?comment_id=975470731712&reply_comment_id=975478012122", "anchor": "fb-975470731712_975478012122", "service": "fb", "text": "→ My use of \"gets\" was confusing, reworded.", "timestamp": "1546644221"}, {"author": "Ross", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/975452877492?comment_id=975472478212", "anchor": "fb-975472478212", "service": "fb", "text": "[edit: Jeff fixed.]
Technical correction:
> That is, instead of \"splitting dances\" in the form of \"John gets X and Susan gets Y\", just split in the form \"John gets X\".
should instead be:
> That is, instead of \"splitting dances\" in the form of \"John gets X and Susan gets Y\", just split in the form \"Susan gets Y\".", "timestamp": "1546642323"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/975452877492?comment_id=975472478212&reply_comment_id=975477837472", "anchor": "fb-975472478212_975477837472", "service": "fb", "text": "→ My use of \"gets\" could be read in two opposing ways. I've reworded it now.", "timestamp": "1546644105"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/975452877492?comment_id=975473206752", "anchor": "fb-975473206752", "service": "fb", "text": "This feels a lot more like a punishment", "timestamp": "1546642838"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/975452877492?comment_id=975473206752&reply_comment_id=975490122852", "anchor": "fb-975473206752_975490122852", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Daniel do you have a sense of how this feels more like punishment? Because that's definitely not the goal.", "timestamp": "1546650245"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/975452877492?comment_id=975473206752&reply_comment_id=975521954062", "anchor": "fb-975473206752_975521954062", "service": "fb", "text": "→ It makes being restricted more of a bad thing. Both in substance (having symmetry applies pressure to keep it manageable) and in appearance (what will people think of you when they learn you can't come on Tuesdays)

It also changes the narrative from \"there is a conflict between these people and we are managing it\" to \"that person did a bad thing and is half-banned\". (Or to \"there is a conflict between these people, but this one is a Real Person and the other is Filthy Scum, so the latter is restricted to avoid inconveniencing the one who matters\", but maybe that's just me being cynical.)", "timestamp": "1546668758"}, {"author": "Aleksandra", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/975452877492?comment_id=975473206752&reply_comment_id=975640890712", "anchor": "fb-975473206752_975640890712", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Daniel this is my interpretation as well.", "timestamp": "1546750281"}, {"author": "Christopher", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/975452877492?comment_id=975473471222", "anchor": "fb-975473471222", "service": "fb", "text": "\" if the reporter (John) credibly doesn't want to be at a dance with a person who hurt him (Susan)...\"

I think you mean \" if the reporter (John) doesn't want to be at a dance with a person whom he credibly reports hurt him (Susan)...\"", "timestamp": "1546642956"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/975452877492?comment_id=975473471222&reply_comment_id=975477942262", "anchor": "fb-975473471222_975477942262", "service": "fb", "text": "→ that's better wording, thanks!", "timestamp": "1546644187"}, {"author": "Carl", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/975452877492?comment_id=996283093572", "anchor": "fb-996283093572", "service": "fb", "text": "...
There is a local dance whose website explicitly states that this is a way that they would treat an abuser.
Thus, treating someone this way at that dance could easily be taken as labeling them an abuser.", "timestamp": "1559403435"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/975452877492?comment_id=996283093572&reply_comment_id=996297694312", "anchor": "fb-996283093572_996297694312", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Carl having a low threshold means that this isn't giving very much information in itself.", "timestamp": "1559412107"}, {"author": "Craig", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/975452877492?comment_id=996436311522", "anchor": "fb-996436311522", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff, If only Solomon\u00b9 (rather than wisdom) had possessed your algorithmic certainty\u2026

\u2014\u2014

\u00b9 \ud835\uddd9\ud835\ude02\ud835\uddfb \ud835\uddf3\ud835\uddee\ud835\uddf0\ud835\ude01
Interval of time between Solomon\u2019s ascension to the throne and Zuckster\u2019s ascension to the (people-algo) throne: 2.974 millennium", "timestamp": "1559496480"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/975452877492?comment_id=996436311522&reply_comment_id=996448601892", "anchor": "fb-996436311522_996448601892", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Craig if you have serious proposals for how dance organizations should handle situations like these I would like to hear them. This is not something where I like any proposal I've seen here very much.", "timestamp": "1559501787"}, {"author": "Craig", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/975452877492?comment_id=996436311522&reply_comment_id=996929313542", "anchor": "fb-996436311522_996929313542", "service": "fb", "text": "→ [oops, I wrote the next reply 3 days ago, and forget to c/p it here and post; just realized my mistake when just now got FB notify of Mac new comment below. Sorry about the delay, Jeff]", "timestamp": "1559765352"}, {"author": "Craig", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/975452877492?comment_id=996436311522&reply_comment_id=996929383402", "anchor": "fb-996436311522_996929383402", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Well, Jeff, my questioning your algorithmic certainty is about as serious as it gets.

But, it seems that you want more.

How about this: \ud835\uddec\ud835\uddfc\ud835\ude02\ud835\uddff \ud835\uddff\ud835\uddf2\ud835\uddfe\ud835\ude02\ud835\uddf2\ud835\ude00\ud835\ude01 \ud835\uddf3\ud835\uddfc\ud835\uddff \u201c\ud835\ude00\ud835\uddf2\ud835\uddff\ud835\uddf6\ud835\uddfc\ud835\ude02\ud835\ude00 \ud835\uddfd\ud835\uddff\ud835\uddfc\ud835\uddfd\ud835\uddfc\ud835\ude00\ud835\uddee\ud835\uddf9\ud835\ude00\u201d \ud835\uddf6\ud835\ude00 \ud835\uddfd\ud835\uddff\ud835\uddf2\ud835\uddf1\ud835\uddf6\ud835\uddf0\ud835\uddee\ud835\ude01\ud835\uddf2\ud835\uddf1 \ud835\ude02\ud835\uddfd\ud835\uddfc\ud835\uddfb \ud835\ude01\ud835\uddf5\ud835\uddf2 \ud835\uddf6\ud835\uddf1\ud835\uddf2\ud835\uddee \ud835\ude01\ud835\uddf5\ud835\uddee\ud835\ude01 \ud835\uddf1\ud835\uddee\ud835\uddfb\ud835\uddf0\ud835\uddf2 \ud835\uddf4\ud835\uddfc\ud835\ude03\ud835\uddf2\ud835\uddff\ud835\uddfb\ud835\uddf6\ud835\uddfb\ud835\uddf4 \ud835\uddef\ud835\uddfc\ud835\uddee\ud835\uddff\ud835\uddf1\ud835\ude00 \ud835\ude00\ud835\uddf5\ud835\uddfc\ud835\ude02\ud835\uddf9\ud835\uddf1 \ud835\uddee\ud835\uddf1\ud835\uddf7\ud835\ude02\ud835\uddf1\ud835\uddf6\ud835\uddf0\ud835\uddee\ud835\ude01\ud835\uddf2 \ud835\uddee\ud835\uddfb\ud835\uddf1 \ud835\uddff\ud835\uddf2\ud835\uddfa\ud835\uddf2\ud835\uddf1\ud835\ude06 \ud835\ude01\ud835\uddf5\ud835\uddf2 \ud835\uddf3\ud835\uddfc\ud835\uddf9\ud835\uddf9\ud835\uddfc\ud835\ude04\ud835\uddf6\ud835\uddfb\ud835\uddf4 \ud835\ude00\ud835\uddfc\ud835\uddff\ud835\ude01 \ud835\uddfc\ud835\uddf3 \ud835\uddfd\ud835\uddf2\ud835\uddff\ud835\ude00\ud835\uddfc\ud835\uddfb\ud835\uddee\ud835\uddf9 \ud835\uddf6\ud835\ude00\ud835\ude00\ud835\ude02\ud835\uddf2\ud835\ude00 \ud835\uddef\ud835\uddf2\ud835\ude01\ud835\ude04\ud835\uddf2\ud835\uddf2\ud835\uddfb \ud835\uddf6\ud835\uddfb\ud835\uddf1\ud835\uddf6\ud835\ude03\ud835\uddf6\ud835\uddf1\ud835\ude02\ud835\uddee\ud835\uddf9\ud835\ude00,

\u201cthe reporter (John) doesn't want to be at a dance with a person he credibly reports hurt him (Susan)\u201d, Susan reports that John hurt her too, Susan hurt John, John hurt Susan (and, upon further consideration) Susan adds that their abusive relationship began when John decided to take a business trip that coincided with Valentine\u2019s Day, in 2013.

Good luck.

(on finding any proposal that you Very Much Like)", "timestamp": "1559765387"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/975452877492?comment_id=996436311522&reply_comment_id=996929902362", "anchor": "fb-996436311522_996929902362", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Craig I don't understand where you're getting \"algorithmic certainty\". I'm not at all sure what the best way to handle situations like this is, and I think there's a decent chance this is something we'll only be able to figure out by different dances taking a range of approaches and learning what works.

What do you think dance organizations should do when they get reports like this?", "timestamp": "1559765670"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/975452877492?comment_id=996436311522&reply_comment_id=996931953252", "anchor": "fb-996436311522_996931953252", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Craig I think that's just my work-related jargon coming through, sorry!

(In case you're curious about the jargon: \"signal\" in the computer science sense is not about \"certainty\". For example, an advertiser might decide to pay more to serve an ad to an iPhone than an Android because iPhone users are on average richer than Android users. iPhone vs Android is a \"signal\", and it's correlated enough with wealth that someone might use it as an input into a decision-making process, but there are of course many rich Android users and poor iPhone users.)", "timestamp": "1559766606"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/975452877492?comment_id=996436311522&reply_comment_id=996939418292", "anchor": "fb-996436311522_996939418292", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Craig if you read my linked piece, where the term came up, I used \"signal\" in the context of writing about how I *don't* think organizers should be strongly considering a factor.", "timestamp": "1559770843"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/975452877492?comment_id=996436311522&reply_comment_id=996976324332", "anchor": "fb-996436311522_996976324332", "service": "fb", "text": "→ \"the other \ud835\uddf7\ud835\uddf2\ud835\uddf3\ud835\uddf3\ud835\ude01\ud835\uddf8\u00b7\ud835\uddf0\ud835\uddfc\ud835\uddfa pages linked to ONLY from the mirrored-OP\"

I also posted it to FB, and this one was a follow up to that one maybe a week later?", "timestamp": "1559784590"}, {"author": "Craig", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/975452877492?comment_id=996436311522&reply_comment_id=997382061232", "anchor": "fb-996436311522_997382061232", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff, I have removed all of my half of the off-topic portion of our convo \u2014 that would be my posts on the varied topics of: variables, structured data, Google ads, algorithmic \u201csignals\u201d, usability, mirrors, and the duality aspects of \ud835\udddd\ud835\uddf2\ud835\uddf3\ud835\uddf3 \ud835\uddfc\ud835\uddfb \ud835\uddd9\ud835\uddd5 versus \ud835\uddf7\ud835\uddf2\ud835\uddf3\ud835\uddf3\ud835\ude01\ud835\uddf8\u00b7\ud835\uddf0\ud835\uddfc\ud835\uddfa", "timestamp": "1560047764"}, {"author": "Mac", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/975452877492?comment_id=996928839492", "anchor": "fb-996928839492", "service": "fb", "text": "I believe the dance organizers must NOT undertake the adjudication of events NOT occurring during their dances. While knowledge of such tensions is useful at preserving peace and safety at their own dance, taking action based of events OUTSIDE their dance is opening a Pandora's box. If an actionable wrong behavior takes place at their dance, the organizers must take action, anything from talking with the people involved, to banning someone who is not behaving, to calling the cops if the offender will not leave. But acting as a _community_ court is a well-intended paving stone on the way to Hell.", "timestamp": "1559765079"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/975452877492?comment_id=996928839492&reply_comment_id=996929463242", "anchor": "fb-996928839492_996929463242", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Walker Let's consider an extreme and (I think) clear-cut situation. Imagine that there is a dancer who has a long pattern of meeting people at the dance and then harming them outside the dance (stalking, abuse, assault, etc). Multiple dancers come to the organizers describing similar behavior outside the dance, and this seems credible. It sounds like you're saying the organizers should take no further action, not even talking to the alleged offender, because there's no harm occurring at the dance itself?", "timestamp": "1559765443"}, {"author": "Mac", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/975452877492?comment_id=996928839492&reply_comment_id=996930730702", "anchor": "fb-996928839492_996930730702", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Good example of a valid exception. Have you ever met it? If an dancer brought information of such behavior to an organizer, and particularly if there were multiple instances, yes, this would be a valid basis for banning. Depending on the severity of the behavior outside the dance, there would also be the possibility of legal action on the part of the victim. Arguably, the offense was stalking _at_ the dance, even though actionable misbehaviors did not take place at the dance.

I and other organizers have seen and heard from multiple sources of unsafe behaviors at dances. The offender was spoken to at a dance where there was no violation, and made aware that they were being observed. There was no bad behavior under those circumstances. An organizer _had_ witnessed the behavior at _other_ dances.

I still believe that in general we do not want to become or be relied on as adjudicators of non-criminal behaviors outside our specific dance.", "timestamp": "1559766153"}, {"author": "Craig", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/975452877492?comment_id=996928839492&reply_comment_id=996931534092", "anchor": "fb-996928839492_996931534092", "service": "fb", "text": "→ \u201c\ud835\udddc \ud835\ude00\ud835\ude01\ud835\uddf6\ud835\uddf9\ud835\uddf9 \ud835\uddef\ud835\uddf2\ud835\uddf9\ud835\uddf6\ud835\uddf2\ud835\ude03\ud835\uddf2 \ud835\ude04\ud835\uddf2 \ud835\uddf1\ud835\uddfc \ud835\uddfb\ud835\uddfc\ud835\ude01 \ud835\ude04\ud835\uddee\ud835\uddfb\ud835\ude01 \ud835\ude01\ud835\uddfc \ud835\uddef\ud835\uddf2\ud835\uddf0\ud835\uddfc\ud835\uddfa\ud835\uddf2 \ud835\uddfc\ud835\uddff \ud835\uddef\ud835\uddf2 \ud835\uddff\ud835\uddf2\ud835\uddf9\ud835\uddf6\ud835\uddf2\ud835\uddf1 \ud835\uddfc\ud835\uddfb \ud835\uddee\ud835\ude00 \ud835\uddee\ud835\uddf1\ud835\uddf7\ud835\ude02\ud835\uddf1\ud835\uddf6\ud835\uddf0\ud835\uddee\ud835\ude01\ud835\uddfc\ud835\uddff\ud835\ude00 \ud835\uddfc\ud835\uddf3 \ud835\uddfb\ud835\uddfc\ud835\uddfb-\ud835\uddf0\ud835\uddff\ud835\uddf6\ud835\uddfa\ud835\uddf6\ud835\uddfb\ud835\uddee\ud835\uddf9 \ud835\uddef\ud835\uddf2\ud835\uddf5\ud835\uddee\ud835\ude03\ud835\uddf6\ud835\uddfc\ud835\uddff\ud835\ude00 \ud835\uddfc\ud835\ude02\ud835\ude01\ud835\ude00\ud835\uddf6\ud835\uddf1\ud835\uddf2 \ud835\uddfc\ud835\ude02\ud835\uddff \ud835\ude00\ud835\uddfd\ud835\uddf2\ud835\uddf0\ud835\uddf6\ud835\uddf3\ud835\uddf6\ud835\uddf0 \ud835\uddf1\ud835\uddee\ud835\uddfb\ud835\uddf0\ud835\uddf2.\u201d

Not sure (yet) whether or not I agree with every bit of the preceding reply, but I very much agree with your last paragraph, Walker.", "timestamp": "1559766498"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/975452877492?comment_id=996928839492&reply_comment_id=996932641872", "anchor": "fb-996928839492_996932641872", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Walker: if dance organizers state publicly that we're only concerned with harmful behavior at our dances, who will bring issues to us of harmful behavior outside our dance that our dance is still facilitating?

To use a concrete example, a mid-30s NC dancer, formerly of MA, was banned by their local dance for contact with minors below the age of consent. I believe all of that contact was outside the dance.", "timestamp": "1559766981"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/975452877492?comment_id=996928839492&reply_comment_id=996932976202", "anchor": "fb-996928839492_996932976202", "service": "fb", "text": "→ (That example is about criminal actions, though the dance community took action independent of the justice system)", "timestamp": "1559767025"}, {"author": "Mac", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/975452877492?comment_id=996928839492&reply_comment_id=996935116912", "anchor": "fb-996928839492_996935116912", "service": "fb", "text": "→ As citizens, criminal behaviors must command our attention. For sure! Knowing about the behavior and _not_ banning the perpetrator would be enabling that behavior. Cannot enable!

This is why I used the phrase \"non-criminal behaviors\". A far less extreme example would be a couple breaking up, and not wanting to encounter one another at a dance.", "timestamp": "1559768160"}, {"author": "Danner", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/975452877492?comment_id=996928839492&reply_comment_id=997035390962", "anchor": "fb-996928839492_997035390962", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Walker, this is sounding a lot like the \"shirley exception\" logic. https://twitter.com/alexand.../status/1004401076777504769...

You'll make exceptions, but to what end? Perhaps the exception should be the rule, and then special cases can build from there instead.", "timestamp": "1559836470"}, {"author": "Mac", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/975452877492?comment_id=996928839492&reply_comment_id=997043684342", "anchor": "fb-996928839492_997043684342", "service": "fb", "text": "→ This is a very generalized statement about a logical approach to developing rules. Do you have actionable suggestions about what organizers should do in general or in exceptional cases?

A dance community is a continuum. Jeff argues for organizer involvement in issues outside of a dance series. I argue for limiting organizer involvement to the community at the dance.

There is an overlay of expectations for any large group of people. This overlay will impose exceptions on any subset of rules within that group.

Jeff's exception involving criminality does not alter my view that organizers are neither therapists nor social mediators for the greater dance community outside the dance.", "timestamp": "1559840740"}, {"author": "Mac", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/975452877492?comment_id=996928839492&reply_comment_id=997044098512", "anchor": "fb-996928839492_997044098512", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Are organizers of a dance automatically community leaders for the greater dance community? Mebbe. But different issue.", "timestamp": "1559840969"}]}