{"items": [{"author": "Steven", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/models-of-contra-dance/10150168661681213/?comment_id=10150168681221213", "anchor": "fb-10150168681221213", "service": "fb", "text": "I think you got it all! I would only mention that the idea that \"most professional musicians are paid several hundred dollars a night\" while likely true implies that there's gold to be made as a pro musician :) while in fact those economics have driven the sorts of venues/events that hire them to switch to recorded music. So pro musicians get paid more -- when they have jobs :(", "timestamp": "1304789687"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/models-of-contra-dance/10150168661681213/?comment_id=10150168775791213", "anchor": "fb-10150168775791213", "service": "fb", "text": "@Steve: Right. I wasn't trying to say that professional musicians have things good. Just that it's a very different payscale from most contra events.", "timestamp": "1304799442"}, {"author": "Joshua", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/models-of-contra-dance/10150168661681213/?comment_id=10150168848761213", "anchor": "fb-10150168848761213", "service": "fb", "text": "Can't say I agree with \"musicians and callers in theory deserve to be paid no more than dancers deserve to be paid\". (I realize it was qualified with \"At the time\".) I don't think it is a question of skill level or the relative value of a dancer, musician, or caller, but there is a difference in whether you have to show up and how key you are to other people enjoying the dance. f I'm a dancer and I am tired or want to hang out with a friend, I have the option. People may miss me because I'm a great dancer and just a wonderful (and modest) person, but if I don't show up, it really won't ruin anyone's evening (except mine). If I'm a caller or a musician, I have to show up. You can set up a really unstructured dance where \"hey who wants to call the next dance\" is the way it's organized, but it would be a different level of dance. In Boston, we have so many talented people, that you'd still have an enjoyable dance. But having callers who are responsible for the whole evening and are thinking about not just one dance but how the whole evening works together really adds to the dance experience.", "timestamp": "1304807551"}, {"author": "Margaret", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/models-of-contra-dance/10150168661681213/?comment_id=10150169268341213", "anchor": "fb-10150169268341213", "service": "fb", "text": "I'm wondering how you see the Brattleboro contra fitting into your models.", "timestamp": "1304865216"}, {"author": "Alex", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/models-of-contra-dance/10150168661681213/?comment_id=10150169614261213", "anchor": "fb-10150169614261213", "service": "fb", "text": "Echo Mog, but I was thinking about Greenfield.", "timestamp": "1304895681"}, {"author": "Kiran", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/models-of-contra-dance/10150168661681213/?comment_id=10150169624556213", "anchor": "fb-10150169624556213", "service": "fb", "text": "If one dancer doesn't show up it's no big deal. If several dancers don't show up, eventually your series doesn't have critical mass. Just ask the caller who called for 8 couples last night.
One of the interesting ironies I've observed is that in many places it's harder to attract a good dancer than it is to find a musician willing to play for little or no money. So you might be right if you were to think dancers deserve to be paid. :D
I can believe that performer compensation hasn't changed much since the 70s. However, dances have become more expensive (and in the local case more inaccessible) while the value offered hasn't changed in a long time--by which I mean, bands, callers and choreographers are providing the same entertainment they provided a decade or two ago, while admission prices and gas prices have doubled. Dancers are used to it, but I'm not sure they're really happy with it.
As for multi-caller series, I've danced for several years in both Nelson and Philly. Both dances are successful, though they do see ups and downs in attendance, and at least in Philly, the quality of a multi-caller event is no worse than the average single-caller event.", "timestamp": "1304896002"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/models-of-contra-dance/10150168661681213/?comment_id=10150169667506213", "anchor": "fb-10150169667506213", "service": "fb", "text": "@Mog: I don't know anything about how the brattleboro contra works. How does it?
@Alex: I would group the greenfield dances in with MUC, even though it's not a very urban area. It acts a lot like boston, philly, and dc.", "timestamp": "1304899820"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/models-of-contra-dance/10150168661681213/?comment_id=10150169671546213", "anchor": "fb-10150169671546213", "service": "fb", "text": "@Joshua: \"whether you have to show up and how key you are to other people enjoying the dance\"
That would seem to imply we should pay organizers. If the people running bida didn't show up to (with volunteers) set up the hall, pay the masons, coordinate with the band and caller, and (with volunteers) clean up, among other things, the dance wouldn't work. By taking turns doing these tasks, though, we can make it within what people are willing to volunteer to do.
I don't think you have to go all the way to \"hey who wants to call the next dance\" in order to make individual musicians and callers less key to the evening. We already have organizers, unpaid. If there are enough callers and musicians, they can do a mix of setting things up a head of time and letting people join in on the spot, while not requiring much commitment.
I do think you probably lose some polish in not having an authorial vision (caller or musician) guiding the whole night, but I think it's worth it in community gains.", "timestamp": "1304900181"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/models-of-contra-dance/10150168661681213/?comment_id=10150169672426213", "anchor": "fb-10150169672426213", "service": "fb", "text": "@Kiran: I believe admission has stayed below inflation, but performer compensation hasn't changed much at all. I wasn't around for much of this time, though, so if people who were wanted to chip in that would be helpful.", "timestamp": "1304900274"}, {"author": "Margaret", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/models-of-contra-dance/10150168661681213/?comment_id=10150169685291213", "anchor": "fb-10150169685291213", "service": "fb", "text": "@Jeff: The musicians and callers booked for the Brattleboro contra are often booked at what you'd call MUC dances. Gypsies and other out-of-town dancers come to dance often, but there's a core of the local community. Beginners aren't plentiful but certainly present, and there are children present, both on and off the floor.
@Alex: did I miss anything you'd think to be important in my description?", "timestamp": "1304901593"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/models-of-contra-dance/10150168661681213/?comment_id=10150169697111213", "anchor": "fb-10150169697111213", "service": "fb", "text": "@Mog: sounds like it doesn't fit the categorization that well, though if we were to squish it in it would maybe be mostly MUC but a little MUR?", "timestamp": "1304902757"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/models-of-contra-dance/10150168661681213/?comment_id=10150169697591213", "anchor": "fb-10150169697591213", "service": "fb", "text": "Also, david points out MUR is an unfortunate acronym for \"Modern Rural Contra\".", "timestamp": "1304902796"}, {"author": "Ethan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/models-of-contra-dance/10150168661681213/?comment_id=10150169809896213", "anchor": "fb-10150169809896213", "service": "fb", "text": "Hi Jeff...Interesting concepts here. I've played for a lot of dance events all over the country, and in my experience there is a lot of grey area and fuzzy edges around and between the categories you describe. I don't think the urban/rural distinction is actually that relevant - a dance's size, level of experience, types of choreography, booking ahead practices, and how the performers are paid have little to do with whether the event is urban or rural. Every regularly scheduled dance has a different character and a different mix of the characteristics you describe.
I think the distinction between a recurring public contra dance and a private event where they are having some dancing (wedding, private party, school event) is really important, because the skills required for each are very different. There is also a whole category of dancing that you've missed, which is the dance weekend or camp. These are much more prevalent outside of New England, and have their own sets of characteristics and norms. Often they allow for a greater range of choreography to be explored, sometimes there are open-mic opportunities, workshops, or jam sessions, and (when there are multiple bands and callers) the staff are able to participate on the dance floor as well as on stage.
On the question of how much (or whether) bands and callers deserve to be paid I'd ask this: Have you ever enjoyed dancing to Nightingale, Wild Asparagus, Airdance, Perpetual eMotion, the Great Bear Trio, Elixir, Nils Fredland, George Marshall, or Lisa Greenleaf? If so, you have benefitted from the skills and experience that full-time professional callers and musicians bring to the scene. I should say that there are lots of exceptionally talented performers who also have other careers, but anyone who calls or plays at a really high level has spent huge amounts of time over the course of their lives developing those skills. It is most possible to put in that time when you are being paid to do so, and paid enough that you can make it your profession. Truly great music and exceptional calling have great power to move people, to create joy, and to build communities; compensating performers so they can hone their craft is an investment in those ends.", "timestamp": "1304915514"}, {"author": "Kiran", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/models-of-contra-dance/10150168661681213/?comment_id=10150169862061213", "anchor": "fb-10150169862061213", "service": "fb", "text": "I've been to the Brattleboro contra twice. It didn't seem to me to be much like what Jeff calls a MUR; I'd just call it a smaller MUC dance, reminiscent of many weekly series in the rest of the country.", "timestamp": "1304921899"}, {"author": "Charley", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/models-of-contra-dance/10150168661681213/?comment_id=10150169982896213", "anchor": "fb-10150169982896213", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff, this is an interesting read. What about \"only dances at weekends\" as a discreet group? These are the folks who are paying higher prices and supporting the the paid professional talent.", "timestamp": "1304941310"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/models-of-contra-dance/10150168661681213/?comment_id=10150169984626213", "anchor": "fb-10150169984626213", "service": "fb", "text": "@Ethan: thanks for bringing up dance weekends. I'm definitely less aware of how things work outside of new england. I'd decided in passing to skip them because they sounded like MUC extended to a weekend and I'd never been to one, but it sounds like they're pretty different.
As for performer pay, I've enjoyed dancing to the music or calling of everyone you list. There is definitely a level of performance, especially for musicians, that is very difficult to achieve while working another job. For me it comes down to your saying \"truly great music and exceptional calling have great power to move people, to create joy, and to build communities\". This is definitely true. But I think that part time callers, bands, and organizers have as much power to do the same. I think playing or calling at a \"really high level\" is not as critical as many other components of a dance series (core dancers, organizers with a strong vision, sound people who really listen, a culture of beginner friendliness ...) in terms of creating joy or community building.
Recognizing that there's something special about a dance with truly excellent performers leads into \"it's not worth dancing to anything less\". Why not review the dances you go to and call out people who don't perform adequately? This is related to a selfish current in the dance community, also containing booking ahead, center set syndrome, and generally valuing the best experience for onesself over that of the group as a whole. My idea of a good dance community is one where people understand that everyone is there to have fun together, where it is easy to move between the floor and the stage, and where good dancing and organizing are as much valued as good playing or calling. I've been involved in communities that come close to this, but I don't have it figured out yet.", "timestamp": "1304941552"}, {"author": "Margaret", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/models-of-contra-dance/10150168661681213/?comment_id=10150170025066213", "anchor": "fb-10150170025066213", "service": "fb", "text": "@Kiran: did you go when a lot of out-of-town dancers were there?", "timestamp": "1304946776"}, {"author": "Anna", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/models-of-contra-dance/10150168661681213/?comment_id=10150170153706213", "anchor": "fb-10150170153706213", "service": "fb", "text": "Interesting discussion. It makes me feel glad that there are so many different models for dance events - I guess this is the \"let a thousand flowers bloom\" argument. Folks who get inspired to help make events happen will find the kind of event into which they want to add their time and effort. Dancers will find the events that suit their preferences and budgets. I'm pretty sure I don't make a living as a dance musician because dancers or dance organizers decided I should be able to, it's just a lucky set of circumstances having to do with the strength of dance scenes around the country and organizations that support them. It may seem counter-intuitive, but my work life benefits very much from open band/mic events that inspire people to get more involved in the scene and perhaps to sign up for a musician's workshop at a camp like Pinewoods or Ashokan. As a musician, I mostly work in the dance weekend model, and I definitely feel some ambivalence about that. When I get the itch to organize something, I usually go for the kitchen junket.", "timestamp": "1304959698"}, {"author": "Anna", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/models-of-contra-dance/10150168661681213/?comment_id=10150170154141213", "anchor": "fb-10150170154141213", "service": "fb", "text": "...Seems like the question here may be - what kind of flower is BIDA?", "timestamp": "1304959737"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/models-of-contra-dance/10150168661681213/?comment_id=10150170157381213", "anchor": "fb-10150170157381213", "service": "fb", "text": "@Anna: BIDA runs pretty much on the MUC model. There's less booking and set-preference than some other area dances, but it's not very different.", "timestamp": "1304960072"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/models-of-contra-dance/10150168661681213/?comment_id=10150170158746213", "anchor": "fb-10150170158746213", "service": "fb", "text": "I should be clear: I don't think we should shut down dance weekends or other existing events that allow some performers to make a living at this. I'm in favor of moving the culture in one direction, but I want to do it by expanding in that direction, not by contracting elsewhere.", "timestamp": "1304960199"}, {"author": "Kiran", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/models-of-contra-dance/10150168661681213/?comment_id=10150170303526213", "anchor": "fb-10150170303526213", "service": "fb", "text": "The vocal minority which doesn't like squares is, in my experience and observation, backed up by a much larger, non-vocal group which shares their opinion. I don't claim this is a good thing, nor do I dislike squares (though I do dislike most squares done at evening contra dances due to their simple choreography, and I dislike the fact that squares don't progress.) But I think most dancers at MUCs actually *don't* like squares.", "timestamp": "1304972581"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/models-of-contra-dance/10150168661681213/?comment_id=10150170346181213", "anchor": "fb-10150170346181213", "service": "fb", "text": "@Nils: The topic of squares at MUC dances is really complex, and I think you have a better handle on it than I do. The best I can do to describe my experience, primarily with younger dancers in the boston contra dance community, however, is that squares are looked down on. When I used to book [1] and a square came up, more than half the time my partner would say \"next contra?\", we'd find other partners, and the square wouldn't 'count'. As I reference above in talking about junkets, when friends of mine from contra come to a house party for the first time where we're doing squares, it can be hard to get them to dance because they see squares as uncool. [2] I would like it if the people who didn't like squares at dances were only a very vocal minority, but that hasn't been my experience.
I appreciate the work that you're doing with squares, and I think you are in a better position than many people to get squares well regarded again.
[1] see other ongoing discussion: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=564796286692...
[2] strangely, kerry sets aren't seen that way, even though they have pretty much all the aspects of squares that people claim to dislike", "timestamp": "1304976206"}, {"author": "Taviy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/models-of-contra-dance/10150168661681213/?comment_id=10150170358616213", "anchor": "fb-10150170358616213", "service": "fb", "text": "This is an interesting theoretical discussion to encounter at a time when the Bangor (3rd and 5th Fridays) dance is facing very practical challenges. We straddle the line between MUR and MUC dances, trying as organizers to give our dance community access to high-quality bands, however one or two consecutive low turnouts put us in a financial pinch. I'm curious to hear how BIDA folks or any other organizers following this thread would address the need to recruit and retain a larger pool of attendees in order to maintain the character of a series, versus changing the character of a series - especially as our convenient access to the Resident Assistant community at UMaine (who often brought new dancers when 6 or more RAs were themselves dancers) evaporates :/", "timestamp": "1304977346"}, {"author": "Taviy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/models-of-contra-dance/10150168661681213/?comment_id=10150170454421213", "anchor": "fb-10150170454421213", "service": "fb", "text": "or simply, \"formations other than duple improper are rare, given the preferences of many MUC dancers\"?", "timestamp": "1304986582"}, {"author": "Sophie", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/models-of-contra-dance/10150168661681213/?comment_id=10150170727941213", "anchor": "fb-10150170727941213", "service": "fb", "text": "to say the majority don't like squares - I feel is a rumor that got started somehow[maybe their was a not so good caller calling them continuously]- one thing about squares - the caller needs to be on their game, know how to teach and what they are doing. Squares are part of the history, the square formation- contra is just easier. hence easier to call. some people just want to dance they don't want to hear little snippets of history but i find the education makes understanding dance easier. I love money musk, it feels like your floating maybe even to not so perfect a set up- if you know how to dance it a bit.", "timestamp": "1305023082"}, {"author": "Sophie", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/models-of-contra-dance/10150168661681213/?comment_id=10150170728501213", "anchor": "fb-10150170728501213", "service": "fb", "text": "I liked the birds eye view of the types of dances.", "timestamp": "1305023194"}]}