{"items": [{"author": "DanArmak", "source_link": "https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/STaFzyajfm3XK43Hj#Mip8EJGKq7gFheCST", "anchor": "lw-Mip8EJGKq7gFheCST", "service": "lw", "text": "Keeping food frozen costs money. It also risks spoilage if the freezing temporarily fails, which is hard to test for later. If jam is obsolete, it's only for sufficiently rich first world families.
Also, many people like sweet spreads and use jams regardless of their preservation properties. ", "timestamp": 1595781651}, {"author": "jefftk", "source_link": "https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/STaFzyajfm3XK43Hj#K3RZ5Ss5YnNf8YntG", "anchor": "lw-K3RZ5Ss5YnNf8YntG", "service": "lw", "text": "→ \n
Keeping food frozen costs money.\n\n
It doesn't cost very much money, depending on your circumstances. In the US, most houses have a large unfinished area where space is not a premium and there's plenty of space to put a chest freezer. For ~$500 you can get a 15 ft.\u00b3 chest freezer that should last 10+ years, or under $4/month. At 300kWh/y it's using $2-5/month in electricity. So each cubic foot of frozen food costs ~$0.60/month. This is extremely cheap, and easily pays for itself by letting you buy food when it is on sale / in season.\n\n
It also risks spoilage if the freezing temporarily fails, which is hard to test for later.\n\n
That is a risk, but if you're keeping your freezer at 0F (standard) you have quite a long time for it to get up to 32F in the event of a power outage, as long as you leave it closed.\n\n
If jam is obsolete, it's only for sufficiently rich first world families.\n\n
Jam is obsolete for the median American family today, and more of the world every year?\n\n
many people like sweet spreads\n\n
I think we generally haven't adjusted for sugar being something that's important to limit. People definitely like it, but they often think of it as fruit or still reasonably healthy, and not as candy. I have no objection at all to someone putting jam on things because they love it and it's worth the sugar to them, but at least in my family growing up we thought of it is just another thing you might spread on food, like butter, peanut butter, or cheese.\n", "timestamp": 1595810024}, {"author": "Randomini", "source_link": "https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/STaFzyajfm3XK43Hj#cmxxToW4Eh68ExZgM", "anchor": "lw-cmxxToW4Eh68ExZgM", "service": "lw", "text": "→ → Electricity use isn't the only ongoing factor, though: consider that freezers are somewhat bulky appliances - you can imagine e.g. in an environment where rent is high, there's an additional ongoing cost of physically having a refrigerator taking up floorspace. If your refrigerator has a floor footprint of about square metre, cost can go up to $60 or more just to have it in your space - an order of magnitude more than electricity cost. So there's a much larger ongoing cost that will dominate that effect.", "timestamp": 1595810492}, {"author": "jefftk", "source_link": "https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/STaFzyajfm3XK43Hj#jJroAstaEod3Fgqza", "anchor": "lw-jJroAstaEod3Fgqza", "service": "lw", "text": "→ → → As I wrote above, in the US most houses have a large unfinished area where space is not a premium and there's plenty of space to put a chest freezer. For example, my house has a ~1000 sqft basement, which can't be legally finished (and is somewhat damp). We have the washer, dryer, freezer, water tank, electrical panel, gas meters, and furnace down there, but there's still tons of extra space which is empty / storage.\n
Places without basements typically have garages, which are similarly cheap.\n", "timestamp": 1595862625}, {"author": "Bucky", "source_link": "https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/STaFzyajfm3XK43Hj#o6bmvknTiAYtiHjA5", "anchor": "lw-o6bmvknTiAYtiHjA5", "service": "lw", "text": "I feel like you\u2019ve buried the lead here - you mean I can have Nutella and frozen fruit for the same(ish) sugar content as jam?
Num num", "timestamp": 1595793594}, {"author": "romeostevensit", "source_link": "https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/STaFzyajfm3XK43Hj#XdBFjTe87ngw8v3XJ", "anchor": "lw-XdBFjTe87ngw8v3XJ", "service": "lw", "text": "I noticed this after attempting to buy jam recently after not having done so for many years and finding every jar on the shelf including tons of added sugars except for the low/no sugar added options which instead add artificial sweeteners.", "timestamp": 1595797380}, {"author": "thesilvermen", "source_link": "https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/STaFzyajfm3XK43Hj#rp9sJD9JzGhdqXpZZ", "anchor": "lw-rp9sJD9JzGhdqXpZZ", "service": "lw", "text": "This is exactly the sort of high quality article for which I am here. Please promptly write an article on pastry alternatives, so that I might increase my knowledge of strange foods.", "timestamp": 1595807485}, {"author": "waveman", "source_link": "https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/STaFzyajfm3XK43Hj#AWA2otRNsgEMQi3xA", "anchor": "lw-AWA2otRNsgEMQi3xA", "service": "lw", "text": "Adding sugar makes the jam sweeter, and also much less healthy.
It is worth pointing out that most fruits have been bred for vastly higher sugar content than the original progenitors. See https://www.sciencealert.com/fruits-vegetables-before-domestication-photos-genetically-modified-food-natural
In addition fruits are not available year round, rather than during a brief window when the fruit naturally ripens. I suspect that this seasonal access, before winter, may explain our tendency to binge on sugars.
The bottom line is that it is almost all "added sugar". It is a fallacy to treat sugar in fruit as being realistically "natural".", "timestamp": 1595810156}, {"author": "jefftk", "source_link": "https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/STaFzyajfm3XK43Hj#hoKL7NmgnTRcrSQkS", "anchor": "lw-hoKL7NmgnTRcrSQkS", "service": "lw", "text": "→ Good point; I wasn't trying to say that the level of sugar that's in the fruit already doesn't count, and the problem is only the sugar you add. Instead, I'm saying that you generally want to keep your sugar consumption down, and that's a lot easier if you're not adding large amounts of it to your fruit.\n", "timestamp": 1595862745}, {"author": "jefftk", "source_link": "https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/STaFzyajfm3XK43Hj#DocXGjgR9gB4dM7FL", "anchor": "lw-DocXGjgR9gB4dM7FL", "service": "lw", "text": "→ → I looked at the sugar levels, and they're pretty different:\n\n\n
100g raspberry jam: 46g sugar\n\n\n
100g raspberries: 5g sugar\n\n\n", "timestamp": 1595867689}, {"author": "Olomana", "source_link": "https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/STaFzyajfm3XK43Hj#5WtknvqBnen67fFgL", "anchor": "lw-5WtknvqBnen67fFgL", "service": "lw", "text": "I like berries on my oatmeal, and have tried various kinds. Blueberries freeze well, and a thawed frozen blueberry is a reasonable approximation of a fresh blueberry. There is the same resistance, pop and release of tartness and flavor. Raspberries turn to mush when they thaw. Strawberries are somewhere in between.", "timestamp": 1595831353}, {"author": "jefftk", "source_link": "https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/STaFzyajfm3XK43Hj#ueriFZz5WbTnr2F7j", "anchor": "lw-ueriFZz5WbTnr2F7j", "service": "lw", "text": "→ \n
Raspberries turn to mush when they thaw.\n\n
Yup! Luckily if I'm substituting them for jam mush is good.\n", "timestamp": 1595862796}, {"author": "Donald Hobson", "source_link": "https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/STaFzyajfm3XK43Hj#yasrMYH3WmLMqeX4i", "anchor": "lw-yasrMYH3WmLMqeX4i", "service": "lw", "text": "We have some sharp blackcurrents growing in the garden. My dad makes jam out of them. The blackcurrents are too sharp to taste nice without sugar. Often he freezes the blackcurrents until he gets around to making jam. We are making jam because it tastes nicer than raw blackcurrent.", "timestamp": 1595844363}, {"author": "TSAstron", "source_link": "https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/STaFzyajfm3XK43Hj#zTMeffQv7SZ2AtD4B", "anchor": "lw-zTMeffQv7SZ2AtD4B", "service": "lw", "text": "Someone can correct this: I thought adding sugar was not just for the taste, but as is the case with medicinal syrup - for the osmotic pressure to prevent bacteria growing. In other words, as a preservative.", "timestamp": 1596379798}, {"author": "jefftk", "source_link": "https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/STaFzyajfm3XK43Hj#BnBEri8GPyrwY59u2", "anchor": "lw-BnBEri8GPyrwY59u2", "service": "lw", "text": "→ You're completely right, but now that we have freezers we can preserve fruit without adding sugar.\n", "timestamp": 1596384733}, {"author": "TSAstron", "source_link": "https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/STaFzyajfm3XK43Hj#vDtiwBY2nfb2ahqpZ", "anchor": "lw-vDtiwBY2nfb2ahqpZ", "service": "lw", "text": "→ → I wonder if there is some particular reason why this is still practiced with drugs then. One economic reason comes to mind: freezers require a constant power supply, and it's another convenience/cost/taste/health trade-off.", "timestamp": 1596391875}, {"author": "jefftk", "source_link": "https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/STaFzyajfm3XK43Hj#fmpqzRN5Jb3v367Ju", "anchor": "lw-fmpqzRN5Jb3v367Ju", "service": "lw", "text": "→ → → What sort of drugs are you thinking of that we use sugar to preserve?\n
If they're drugs that people don't consume often or in large quantities then the sugar may not be all that relevant from the health perspective.\n", "timestamp": 1596392556}, {"author": "TSAstron", "source_link": "https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/STaFzyajfm3XK43Hj#L6cafAJZqqTXgbNNk", "anchor": "lw-L6cafAJZqqTXgbNNk", "service": "lw", "text": "→ → → → Cough syrup for example. And bear in mind that "we" varies widely across the globe, so I can't speak for all countries. Same would go for availability of freezers and electricity.
You are right, in itself a small quantity of medicine does not make a difference, but do doctors and pharmacists take the patient's full diet into account with something as ordinary as syrup? And, in the end it still adds to your total sugar consumption. The same point could be made about mouthwash, and yet "we" moved away from alcohol-based ones.", "timestamp": 1596399935}, {"author": "jefftk", "source_link": "https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/STaFzyajfm3XK43Hj#3Rq2cNQ9yG4hQbqJZ", "anchor": "lw-3Rq2cNQ9yG4hQbqJZ", "service": "lw", "text": "→ → → → → I expect cough syrup is a small enough part of anyone's diet that trying to make it work without sugar is a pretty low priority?\n
I wasn't aware people had moved away from alcohol based mouthwash; looking at my store brand Listerine knockoff it seems to be 21.6% alcohol.\n", "timestamp": 1596404232}, {"author": "TSAstron", "source_link": "https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/STaFzyajfm3XK43Hj#AkWYtKMM3vFNKXMih", "anchor": "lw-AkWYtKMM3vFNKXMih", "service": "lw", "text": "→ → → → → → I've noticed over the years, that dentist insisted on using the non-alcoholic ones (which could be a random/personal observation), but then Listerine Zero became widely available which points to such a move. That there are knockoffs with alcohol sounds like the trade-off I mentioned: perhaps it is cheaper to manufacture.
As for the syrup, that was just one example, and it seems to be a regular part of everyone's diet in the flu season here. But it could be common sense/childhood memories invading my evidence space, and like with mouthwash, it could just be the matter of priorities, so I'm not gonna press it :)", "timestamp": 1596452891}, {"author": "Said Achmiz", "source_link": "https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/STaFzyajfm3XK43Hj#hBqRv5Ps8zMcNcrBe", "anchor": "lw-hBqRv5Ps8zMcNcrBe", "service": "lw", "text": "Jam is tastier than frozen fruit. This, as far as I can see, ends the debate. (And if your jam is not tastier than frozen fruit, then you\u2019re doing jam wrong.)\n
(\u2026 you are making the jam yourself, of course\u2014aren\u2019t you? Certainly there is little point in comparing to store-bought jam.)\n", "timestamp": 1596407159}]}