{"items": [{"author": "Ruby", "source_link": "https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/cHujateswTyJfMkPT#hTwrymjktf84ZYR5M", "anchor": "lw-hTwrymjktf84ZYR5M", "service": "lw", "text": "I wonder if it'd be a good idea to have something like \"Rationalist Christmas\" or Rationalist Christmas traditions: things that build on the existing holiday, e.g. Rationalist decorate their trees with depictions of 12 virtues of rationality, Rationalists listen to and sing the X-Days of X-Risk.
", "timestamp": 1576638853}, {"author": "Raemon", "source_link": "https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/cHujateswTyJfMkPT#ZwhCAsZGq7pa9Eo3r", "anchor": "lw-ZwhCAsZGq7pa9Eo3r", "service": "lw", "text": "(upvoted, although this is a rare case where I expect to do my commenting on FB instead of LessWrong, partly because that's where most of the discussion already is, and a lot of it has high social context)", "timestamp": 1576638913}, {"author": "Raymond", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100127590015422?comment_id=10100127612824712", "anchor": "fb-10100127612824712", "service": "fb", "text": "I should probably clarify a bit that I worded the post a bit more strongly than I endorse, both because:
a) a large portion of it was responding to Duncan in particular, and thus emphasizing bits that were relevant to him
b) I wanted to do a bit of a pendulum swing in the _direction_ of small solstice, which felt like it required a bit of \"overcorrection\" (in tone/emphasis).
I think people who have existing holiday traditions aren't really in need of Small Intimate Solstice. But I think it should be a salient option for people in the process of figuring out their own small community traditions.
These goals are mostly on the 50-year timescale, and about the longterm platonic ideal, than about what I think people should be doing now.", "timestamp": "1576648274"}, {"author": "ChristianKl", "source_link": "https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/cHujateswTyJfMkPT#kCTbBitMMqYjpugR3", "anchor": "lw-kCTbBitMMqYjpugR3", "service": "lw", "text": "(I already posted it to the facebook thread of Ray)
I live in Berlin where we had our 7th Solstice this year (technically the first three years where in another city, but there's continuity).
I think this year we were around 17ish people.
It's neither big nor small in your categories but it does what it's does what we want. On person who was their the first time noted afterwards something along the lines of it having been the day in their lives that felt the most meaningful to them.
A majority of the people in our local community spend Christmas with their families and the 24th is not a day where there would be enough interest to have an event with rationalists in Berlin.
I don't think you can hold a Christmas like event every year at the 21.12 either. There are public holidays that enable the 24 (or 25/26) to be a practical date that you don't have for newly created events.
The problem of what those people who don't have a family with whom they can be at the official Christmas date can't be solved by having a solstice event at the 21. If those people want to not be alone they need an event with friends at that actual date.
The 3-chapter ark and it's narrative feels integral to our event and has the value of being refined tradition to me. I wouldn't want to break the tradition we build up by changing the name around.", "timestamp": 1576701776}, {"author": "Raemon", "source_link": "https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/cHujateswTyJfMkPT#qT8cJjXXgChfpftq5", "anchor": "lw-qT8cJjXXgChfpftq5", "service": "lw", "text": "→ I had been planning to write an abstracted reply to this (along with a couple other comments in a similar vein) that addressed the issue more comprehensively. But, ended up deciding to note here for now:
\"17 people\" is within what I meant by \"small\". (I think \"small\" caps out at around 25, depending on how well you know each other). I think I accidentally conveyed a different message than I meant to.
I'm not quite sure what the ideal relationship between Big and Small solstice is (although obviously it varies from group to group). The last couple years, Big Bay Solstice didn't quite do the thing I wanted, and I held a small private solstice (around 15 people) that was basically my own usual take on the 3 chapter arc.
In years where Big Solstice hit exactly the notes I wanted it to hit, I wouldn't feel the need for \"Small Solstice that is just a smaller-scale replica of Big Solstice\", and I'm not sure if I'd prefer \"just kinda chill with my friends having dinner and cookies and a fireplace\" or \"come up with a different ritual that somehow directly reflects our relationship.\"
I think there's basically N things that are good to have, and whether these work best as two separate events depends on your situation:A time to gather with your \"extended community\" (whatever that means \u2013 could mean 250 people, could mean 20)A time to gather with your close friends, or with people highly aligned with you (could mean, like, 3 people, or like 25. I think the 50-person 2012 NYC Solstice sort of straddles the upper boundary here)A time to have a serious ritual arc A time to have warm fuzzy togetherness
The important thing to me is that people have an opportunity for each of these.", "timestamp": 1576708259}, {"author": "Raemon", "source_link": "https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/cHujateswTyJfMkPT#5s9GzAm6mKEhDRW5Z", "anchor": "lw-5s9GzAm6mKEhDRW5Z", "service": "lw", "text": "Relevant quote from the original NYC Ritual Report:
My family\u2019s Christmas Eve celebration is one of my favorite parts of the year. The extended family gathers. We have a big feast. Then 20+ people huddle up and sing songs and tell stories for hours. I don\u2019t believe in the literal messages of these rituals, but they have a power to them that I rarely see outside of religious-inspired works of art. They feel timeless and magical even though most Christmas carols have only existed for 50 years or so. The repetition of them each year grants them ritual strength. And the closeness I feel with my family grants them warmth.
Together, all these things are precious.
I didn\u2019t realize how precious, though, until the year I invited a friend of mine to the Christmas Eve party. Her first reaction amused me: \u201cWait, you guys literally sit around a fire and sing Christmas carols? Like, in movies?\u201d Her second reaction, as the night ended, was even more amusing: \u201cOh my god, I had no idea Christmas could be so awesome!\u201d But I knew what she meant, and it was accompanied with the realization that NOT everybody got to have experiences like this.
And that made Christmas Eve all the more special. It also made me realize how ridiculous it is that I only get to have that experience once a year.
That desire nagged at me a few years, and it was accompanied by another nagging dissatisfaction: That I didn\u2019t really believe in the words of the songs. They had power, generated by the magnitude of the songwriter\u2019s belief, and given lyric form by carefully honed skill. But they weren\u2019t true, and the falsehood itched at the back of my mind. Not because of the songs themselves, but because there weren't other songs, equally beautiful and with the same cultural weight, that were about things that I truly believed in.
Christmas has a lot of nice things (presents, decorations, etc), many of which pre-date Christian influence. But one of the things that was specifically nice to me about \"small Christmas\" was that it did have a ritual arc, which included bits that had memetic depth. I just... wanted to have that, but with memetic depth that I actually endorsed.", "timestamp": 1576708381}, {"author": "Jacob", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100127590015422?comment_id=10100127861551262", "anchor": "fb-10100127861551262", "service": "fb", "text": "This year's Bay solstice was much more like the Small Solstice Ray did originally, to its severe detriment.", "timestamp": "1576794193"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100127590015422?comment_id=10100127861551262&reply_comment_id=10100127863437482", "anchor": "fb-10100127861551262_10100127863437482", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jacob can you say more about how it was? For reference, I was at NYC solstice in 2012 (group house) and 2013 (auditorium).", "timestamp": "1576795179"}, {"author": "Jacob", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100127590015422?comment_id=10100127861551262&reply_comment_id=10100127874485342", "anchor": "fb-10100127861551262_10100127874485342", "service": "fb", "text": "→ So it was in a planetarium, as it was last year. This is a great venue in every respect except that it does not allow the audience to hold live candles and physically carry out the lit/dark/slowly relighting sequence. I have attended only one solstice which was able to do that (the last one in Humanist Hall, 2015); last year I pronounced the planetarium \"*almost* worth losing the candles\", and I stand by that.", "timestamp": "1576799682"}, {"author": "Jacob", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100127590015422?comment_id=10100127861551262&reply_comment_id=10100127874779752", "anchor": "fb-10100127861551262_10100127874779752", "service": "fb", "text": "→ However, as I also said last year, a planetarium is not built for community/closeness/intimacy. It's more or less built for the opposite; the acoustics are intended to aurally isolate the audience members, you can't squish together like on bench seating even if you really want to, and by design your gaze is directed upwards, away from the rest of the audience and even from the stage. This can be worked around, but it makes it very hard to get the \"small intimate gathering\" vibe.", "timestamp": "1576799811"}, {"author": "Jacob", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100127590015422?comment_id=10100127861551262&reply_comment_id=10100127875383542", "anchor": "fb-10100127861551262_10100127875383542", "service": "fb", "text": "→ This year's Bay Solstice borrowed heavily from 2011 Solstice, and was about 80% singalongs by length. These didn't totally fall flat, but with the physical environment isolating, the feelings of togetherness this is meant to foster had to propagate entirely by sound, and one sense is just not enough to make that work. There was also more active MCing than there has been at any other Solstice I've attended, most of which was light and banterish. This clearly aimed for a light, \"happy community\" vibe, but that's the same kind of thing as the togetherness feeling, and likewise I think it didn't work well.", "timestamp": "1576800091"}, {"author": "Jacob", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100127590015422?comment_id=10100127861551262&reply_comment_id=10100127875757792", "anchor": "fb-10100127861551262_10100127875757792", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Altogether, I think it did about as well as a Solstice of that size in that venue with that goal could, but that wasn't very well because the kinds of things that work for a small group Solstice in an intimate setting don't actually work for a large group in a public setting. One of the organizers, in conversation afterward, named the distinction between what they were going for and what I'd prefer \"Low Church/High Church\", respectively. I think they did about as well as could be done for a \"Low Church\" event in a strongly \"High Church\"-aligned venue and invite list, but it's still...not very effective.", "timestamp": "1576800270"}, {"author": "Raymond", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100127590015422?comment_id=10100127861551262&reply_comment_id=10100127902708782", "anchor": "fb-10100127861551262_10100127902708782", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I do roughly agree with this assessment. (While I wasn't directly responsible for programming, I've thought a fair bit about how I'd want to run a Solstice in the Bay, and whether I'd want to do High Church in the Planetarium, Low/(Medium?) Church in the Planetarium, or Low Church somewhere else.
I happen to prefer Low Church generally, think that the planetarium is quite amazing on certain dimensions but very much runs against the Low Church aesthetic.
It's relevant that I don't currently know of an alternative venue that _does_ really nail the warm togetherness aesthetic that actually fits everyone. I expect that either next year or the year after we'll have to find another venue regardless because the community just won't fit in the planetarium anyways, but I think the alternatives are more like \"giant boxes\" that warm spaces or temples. I think it's a defensible position that that would be an improvement, although it still feels a bit sad.", "timestamp": "1576812638"}, {"author": "Raymond", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100127590015422?comment_id=10100127861551262&reply_comment_id=10100127902913372", "anchor": "fb-10100127861551262_10100127902913372", "service": "fb", "text": "→ (I do personally get more utility from Low-Church-in-Planetarium than High-Church-in-Planetarium, but acknowledge a sort of sadness of not really fully capitalizing on the planetarium's strengths)", "timestamp": "1576812683"}, {"author": "Miranda", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100127590015422?comment_id=10100127861551262&reply_comment_id=10100127914560032", "anchor": "fb-10100127861551262_10100127914560032", "service": "fb", "text": "→ ...Man, if the Solstice had been more High Church it might have *flattened* me. (I have a pretty strong emotional response to ritual, especially High Church style ritual, and as it was I had a pretty intense time.)", "timestamp": "1576817953"}, {"author": "Satvik", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100127590015422?comment_id=10100127861551262&reply_comment_id=10100127963382192", "anchor": "fb-10100127861551262_10100127963382192", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Fwiw I thought this year's was the best solstice I've been to.", "timestamp": "1576865089"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100127590015422?comment_id=10100127861551262&reply_comment_id=10100127963581792", "anchor": "fb-10100127861551262_10100127963581792", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Satvik which others have you been to?", "timestamp": "1576865236"}, {"author": "Satvik", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100127590015422?comment_id=10100127861551262&reply_comment_id=10100127963671612", "anchor": "fb-10100127861551262_10100127963671612", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I'm not 100% sure about the years, but I think 2014 in NY, and 2016 + 2017 in Berkeley.", "timestamp": "1576865294"}, {"author": "Jacob", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100127590015422?comment_id=10100127861551262&reply_comment_id=10100127963681592", "anchor": "fb-10100127861551262_10100127963681592", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I think the obvious way to split, once we have to split, is a Higher-Church planetarium solstice and a Lower-Church Humanist Hall solstice.
I liked last year's better than this year's but this one was better than any of the others in the Bay since 2015.", "timestamp": "1576865311"}]}