{"items": [{"author": "Maggie", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100119962955112", "anchor": "fb-10100119962955112", "service": "fb", "text": "At the risk of being the example of this: \"..they pull comment threads off in bad directions\" could just be another point of view.", "timestamp": "1572961778"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100119962955112&reply_comment_id=10100119993349202", "anchor": "fb-10100119962955112_10100119993349202", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Maggie It is just a point of view, but the question isn't so much \"is this person objectively bad?\", but rather \"should I have more granular control over this on my own pages?\"", "timestamp": "1572977863"}, {"author": "Danni", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100119963094832", "anchor": "fb-10100119963094832", "service": "fb", "text": "I notice you didn't mention \"unfriending\", which isn't quite the same as what you described, but does seem to fall in betweeen \"blocking\" and \"hiding\" I believe?", "timestamp": "1572961806"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100119963094832&reply_comment_id=10100119968174652", "anchor": "fb-10100119963094832_10100119968174652", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Good point! That's close to what I want, except it's, well, unfriendly?", "timestamp": "1572963823"}, {"author": "Danni", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100119963094832&reply_comment_id=10100119968279442", "anchor": "fb-10100119963094832_10100119968279442", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman Yeah. It also cuts off access to non-public posts (yours to theirs and theirs to yours), so it doesn't exactly fit the parameters you described.", "timestamp": "1572963956"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100119963094832&reply_comment_id=10100119968528942", "anchor": "fb-10100119963094832_10100119968528942", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Danni yes, though that wouldn't bother me: I only post publicly, and if I don't want to interact with someone failing to see their non-public posts is fine.", "timestamp": "1572964019"}, {"author": "Liz", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100119963094832&reply_comment_id=10100119971672642", "anchor": "fb-10100119963094832_10100119971672642", "service": "fb", "text": "→ There are people I have kept on my list in order to keep a watchful eye on their behavior and state of mind.", "timestamp": "1572965832"}, {"author": "Rosemary", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100119964332352", "anchor": "fb-10100119964332352", "service": "fb", "text": "This is interesting, As I see it you wish to control who sees your posted content. FB is setup that users get some control over what each user sees. Have you tried posting to circles/friends and how does this interact with you block/block-lite?", "timestamp": "1572962332"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100119964332352&reply_comment_id=10100119967980042", "anchor": "fb-10100119964332352_10100119967980042", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I want my posts to be public: I like getting responses from a range of folks, including people I don't know yet.", "timestamp": "1572963699"}, {"author": "Bill", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100119966587832", "anchor": "fb-10100119966587832", "service": "fb", "text": "I think the \"acquaintance\" option for FB \"friends\" is intended for this task; I assume it adds a self-chosen bias to the FB algorithm. Has it helped for you? It seems to have worked for me (or none of my friends are inane\ud83d\ude42).", "timestamp": "1572963083"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100119966587832&reply_comment_id=10100119968054892", "anchor": "fb-10100119966587832_10100119968054892", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I don't think setting someone to \"acquaintance\" affects how likely they are to see your stuff?", "timestamp": "1572963741"}, {"author": "Bill", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100119966587832&reply_comment_id=10100119968838322", "anchor": "fb-10100119966587832_10100119968838322", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Hmm, \"outgoing\" vs. \"incoming\". Which reminds me, I have to check the visibility settings on some recent posts...and in FB help on \"audience selector\", I actually found helpful advice on this.", "timestamp": "1572964167"}, {"author": "Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100119966587832&reply_comment_id=10100119969596802", "anchor": "fb-10100119966587832_10100119969596802", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman It does if you set privacy to \u201cshare with friends except acquaintances\u201d, but that doesn\u2019t do exactly what you\u2019re looking for. It may be close enough to be helpful.", "timestamp": "1572964550"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100119966587832&reply_comment_id=10100119969986022", "anchor": "fb-10100119966587832_10100119969986022", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Sure; there are a lot of ways to share with specific lists of people. But I want default-allow, not default-deny.", "timestamp": "1572964775"}, {"author": "Ambivert", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100119966587832&reply_comment_id=10100119991622662", "anchor": "fb-10100119966587832_10100119991622662", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I will set things to \"friends except person x y and z.\" Some posts I would set to Public minus those people if it were possible. It's similar to what fb already offers and might be a simpler function to make? (The list of excluded people is automatic from the previous time plus simple to change)", "timestamp": "1572976901"}, {"author": "Ambivert", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100119966587832&reply_comment_id=10100119992076752", "anchor": "fb-10100119966587832_10100119992076752", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Whoops, that idea got mentioned further down.", "timestamp": "1572977156"}, {"author": "Melissa", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100119967555892", "anchor": "fb-10100119967555892", "service": "fb", "text": "I'm guessing that the \"approved FB method for dealing with this\" is filtering. You can filter out anybody who you don't want to be able to participate in a conversation. New friends who you add later would not be part of the exceptions list, and so they would be able to see these things also.", "timestamp": "1572963475"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100119967555892&reply_comment_id=10100119967995012", "anchor": "fb-10100119967555892_10100119967995012", "service": "fb", "text": "→ This would work, if I only wanted to talk to friends", "timestamp": "1572963713"}, {"author": "Melissa", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100119967555892&reply_comment_id=10100119968194612", "anchor": "fb-10100119967555892_10100119968194612", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Yup. It's an imperfect system, at best.", "timestamp": "1572963847"}, {"author": "Wolf", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100119967785432", "anchor": "fb-10100119967785432", "service": "fb", "text": "\" \"so and so isn't showing up in my discussions any more\" would make others happier and improve their experience using the network\"
I think the science isn't settled yet on whether this would probably come with the negative externality of further political polarization. I have read articles to both ends.", "timestamp": "1572963663"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100119967785432&reply_comment_id=10100119968778442", "anchor": "fb-10100119967785432_10100119968778442", "service": "fb", "text": "→ People can already limit who they see in ways that increase polarization, and I expect that's most of the effect?
Cases where I've wanted this the most are ones that go the other way: we're having a thoughtful discussion on a politically tricky topic, and then a friend (who I like in person) barges in and starts writing noisy politically charged comments.", "timestamp": "1572964115"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100119967785432&reply_comment_id=10100119968973052", "anchor": "fb-10100119967785432_10100119968973052", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I know other friends have dealt with this by making things like a \"sensitive topics list\" of friends they trust, but I'd much rather have a default-allow policy", "timestamp": "1572964266"}, {"author": "Wolf", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100119967785432&reply_comment_id=10100119969611772", "anchor": "fb-10100119967785432_10100119969611772", "service": "fb", "text": "→ \"People can already limit who they see in ways that increase polarization, and I expect that's most of the effect?\"
Yes, but as you mentioned in your post, there are various barriers to doing so, some of them psychological. Giving plausible deniability might lead to an increase of this sort of thing occurring.", "timestamp": "1572964556"}, {"author": "Wolf", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100119967785432&reply_comment_id=10100119969666662", "anchor": "fb-10100119967785432_10100119969666662", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Do you know that you can, when viewing your wall, set the visibility of individual posts to exclude specific people? (isn't deniable, but harder to detect than a block)", "timestamp": "1572964599"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100119967785432&reply_comment_id=10100119969926142", "anchor": "fb-10100119967785432_10100119969926142", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Wolf you can't do this if you want the posts to be public. There's no \"Public but not So-and-so\"", "timestamp": "1572964731"}, {"author": "Wolf", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100119967785432&reply_comment_id=10100119970260472", "anchor": "fb-10100119967785432_10100119970260472", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Oh, you're right, I thought the \"Don't share with\" did that but I just noticed I was wrong. When you use the option it then displays \"friends, except...\".", "timestamp": "1572964926"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100119967785432&reply_comment_id=10100119970495002", "anchor": "fb-10100119967785432_10100119970495002", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I would be reasonably happy with \"public except people-who-write-dumb-comments-list\" though I'd still like people on the list to be able to see my posts if they explicitly tried", "timestamp": "1572965106"}, {"author": "Wolf", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100119967785432&reply_comment_id=10100119970649692", "anchor": "fb-10100119967785432_10100119970649692", "service": "fb", "text": "→ In that case you can just block them (if you ditch the deniability thing) because they will be able to see your posts when they log out of FB. ;-)", "timestamp": "1572965192"}, {"author": "Wolf", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100119967785432&reply_comment_id=10100119971008972", "anchor": "fb-10100119967785432_10100119971008972", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Actually that seems to have changed as well, or is at least handled differently for different types of profiles.", "timestamp": "1572965602"}, {"author": "Wolf", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100119967785432&reply_comment_id=10100119972850282", "anchor": "fb-10100119967785432_10100119972850282", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Looks like not all FBs user guides are kept current: https://www.facebook.com/help/151639521571096/
This is not the behavior I experience today.", "timestamp": "1572966461"}, {"author": "Todd", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100119969172652", "anchor": "fb-10100119969172652", "service": "fb", "text": "How different is this from a sort of reverse-unfollow?", "timestamp": "1572964406"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100119969172652&reply_comment_id=10100119969846302", "anchor": "fb-10100119969172652_10100119969846302", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I think it would be about the same?", "timestamp": "1572964693"}, {"author": "Peter", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100119970280432", "anchor": "fb-10100119970280432", "service": "fb", "text": "FB used to have the option of \u201cshow me less of this person\u201d, but I think they dropped it in favor of show me nothing from this person for 30 days.", "timestamp": "1572964959"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100119970280432&reply_comment_id=10100119970355282", "anchor": "fb-10100119970280432_10100119970355282", "service": "fb", "text": "→ That's the opposite; I want \"show this person less of me\"", "timestamp": "1572965027"}, {"author": "Zera", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100119970475042", "anchor": "fb-10100119970475042", "service": "fb", "text": "I like this idea.
Setting someone as \"Restricted\" has a primary effect that doesn't solve your problem (it makes it so they only see your Public posts and any posts you tag them in), but might have a secondary effect of the algorithm showing them your content less often overall in the interim.", "timestamp": "1572965105"}, {"author": "Bill", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100119971418152", "anchor": "fb-10100119971418152", "service": "fb", "text": "So if we were talking face-to-face, what would I do? I would look away from the off-topic talker, and respond only to the person who is keeping to the topic; I would draw them out with my eyes, with active listening, and ignore the off-topic. Eventually, off-topic would either come on-topic, or go away. So how could we do this is in text?
It takes two to interact; so literally minimize the literal interaction. Resist the temptation to answer every word that is posted (and as a smart older male person, this is hard for me\ud83d\ude42). Do not respond to off-topic posts, do not use the off-topic words, even to suppress them; but instead respond only to the on-topic posts, and use their words to increase the interaction with the on-topic person.
This tactic has the added advantages that it is easily reversible, is portable to all social media, and does not depend on anyone's political opinions.", "timestamp": "1572965680"}, {"author": "Anna", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100119974961052", "anchor": "fb-10100119974961052", "service": "fb", "text": "I have the same desire, except that most of my posts are not public so I use filtering.", "timestamp": "1572967720"}, {"author": "Hazel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100119977461042", "anchor": "fb-10100119977461042", "service": "fb", "text": "The \"restricted\" friend categorization is probably the closest thing to this.", "timestamp": "1572969283"}, {"author": "Jai", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100119977476012", "anchor": "fb-10100119977476012", "service": "fb", "text": "(using no special insider knowledge, just generalizing from general feature proposal questions)
I think the hardest part of this is communicating clearly to users how this works and when you should use it. That means a one or two word title that gets the idea across to almost anyone who sees just that, and maybe twenty words for detail. (First attempt: \"Avoid: They won't see anything from you in their feed, but they can still search for it or follow a direct link.\")
You also need to spend some time considering any social attack vectors this opens up - off the top of my head, you could combine this with any conservation-of-reach to aggressively target a small set of people. You also have to consider the worst possible PR take and assume that lots of people will think of it that way (off the top of my head: \"New FB feature threatens to increase polarization and decrease dialogue\", \"Neo Nazis love the new FB feature that lets them harass victims while ignoring complaints\")", "timestamp": "1572969284"}, {"author": "Jeffrey", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100119985190552", "anchor": "fb-10100119985190552", "service": "fb", "text": "Maybe a \"show me less of this\" button.", "timestamp": "1572973598"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100119985190552&reply_comment_id=10100119988823272", "anchor": "fb-10100119985190552_10100119988823272", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeffrey I'm not looking for \"show me less of this\", I want \"show them less of this\". Like, my goal is to see fewer of their comments, but via \"they are not induced to leave those comments on my posts\" and not \"those comments are hidden from me\"", "timestamp": "1572975266"}, {"author": "Jeffrey", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100119985190552&reply_comment_id=10100119991517872", "anchor": "fb-10100119985190552_10100119991517872", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Interesting.", "timestamp": "1572976815"}, {"author": "Alex", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100120002570722", "anchor": "fb-10100120002570722", "service": "fb", "text": "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_banning but for a single edge?", "timestamp": "1572982617"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100120002570722&reply_comment_id=10100120019886022", "anchor": "fb-10100120002570722_10100120019886022", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Alex I think of shadow banning as \"they can post but no one will see it\" but reading the Wikipedia page the term has been used a bit more broadly", "timestamp": "1572989327"}, {"author": "Alex", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100120002570722&reply_comment_id=10100120039386942", "anchor": "fb-10100120002570722_10100120039386942", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Ya, I guess my thinking is, if they see your post and comment on it or interact with it, you might just want that interaction to not show up for you or for anyone. But what you want is for The Algorithm to simply not present it to them in the first place.", "timestamp": "1572996762"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100120002570722&reply_comment_id=10100120045664362", "anchor": "fb-10100120002570722_10100120045664362", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Alex yes, the latter", "timestamp": "1572999118"}, {"author": "Viliam", "source_link": "https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/ZwW66G7GkJC5FfHBt#n6C4bKvFTWndDdEsG", "anchor": "lw-n6C4bKvFTWndDdEsG", "service": "lw", "text": "There is no economical reason to optimize for your happiness, if you can't easily switch to a competing platform. Maybe unhappy people click more ads, who knows... But for the sake of thought experiment let's assume that our corporate overlords are benevolent.
Could this feature be somehow abused? The first idea that comes to my mind is, imagine that I hate you and decide to spread some nasty rumors about you. Let's assume that we are already connected as "friends". So I use this feature to lite-block you. Because you wanted plausible deniability, it means that our mutual friends would still see that we are friends. And they will see what I write about you. But you won't see it, so you won't be able to react. But they will assume that you saw it, and could interpret your silence as consent.
In less personal situations, this could be used to make someone look bad by association. Imagine a politician or a celebrity, who "friends" tons of people without thinking twice. So I make hundred fake accounts, use them all to "friend" my target, then all of them will lite-block the target, and start posting some sort of bad stuff. Now when anyone else looks at the target, they will be "uh, this guy has a lot of Nazi friends". Only the target will not see anything bad during their everyday usage of the platform.
Maybe not the most convincing examples, but generally it seems bad to me that the functionality you want is messing with other person's vision, without them being aware of it. That feels like something that can be abused. So we have to consider how a bad actor would abuse it.", "timestamp": 1572990001}, {"author": "jkaufman", "source_link": "https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/ZwW66G7GkJC5FfHBt#Nz6Jtmaq6KcTzRMNX", "anchor": "lw-Nz6Jtmaq6KcTzRMNX", "service": "lw", "text": "→ I think your two examples of abusing the feature can be more easily and subtly done today:\n\n\n
If you hate me and want to spread rumors you could just share with \"friends except jkaufman\". To your other friends it just looks like a normal post with restricted visibility. You can do this today on FB, either directly or by adding me to your \"restricted\" list (which is automatically carved out from posts shared to \"friends\"). You can also just block me and expect reasonably that no one will notice.\n\n\n
If you want to make me look bad by assocation and you can convince me to accept a friend request from your fake accounts, all you have to do is post boring content I won't interact with. The network will quickly decide that these new friends are not interesting to me, and then when they later start posting hateful things I won't notice.\n\n\n", "timestamp": 1573046534}, {"author": "ofer", "source_link": "https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/ZwW66G7GkJC5FfHBt#h5hgJ7fWYuwTbZ9DX", "anchor": "lw-h5hgJ7fWYuwTbZ9DX", "service": "lw", "text": "\n
Social networks generally have far more things they could show you than you'll be able to look at. To prioritize they use inscrutable algorithms that boil down to \"we show you the things we predict you're going to like\".\n\n
Presumably, social networks tend to optimize for metrics like time spent and user retention. (There might even be a causal relationship between this optimization and threads getting derailed.)\n
Also, this seems like a stable/likely state, because if any single social network would unilaterally switch to optimize for 'showing users things they like' (or any other metric different from the above), competing social networks would plausibly be \"stealing\" their users.\n", "timestamp": 1573028099}, {"author": "jkaufman", "source_link": "https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/ZwW66G7GkJC5FfHBt#BA4uAY7i6d6iCxpqY", "anchor": "lw-BA4uAY7i6d6iCxpqY", "service": "lw", "text": "→ Users liking / interacting with things is a strong leading indicator of engagement and time spent, and you get it on a per-item basis. So you use those predictions heavily in deciding what to show people, but tune your model based on your larger scale metrics like time spent.\n", "timestamp": 1573042799}, {"author": "Lisa", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100120105449552", "anchor": "fb-10100120105449552", "service": "fb", "text": "Way back when (possibly 2007?) FB had an option to see more or less of individual friends. I kind liked that one, but it didn't last long.", "timestamp": "1573037287"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119961967092?comment_id=10100120105449552&reply_comment_id=10100120109790852", "anchor": "fb-10100120105449552_10100120109790852", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Lisa there have been versions of that for a long time, but it's the opposite of what I'm looking for. I want a way that individual friends will see less of my posts.", "timestamp": "1573042207"}]}