{"items": [{"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1572566205"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119199095892?comment_id=10100119201366342&reply_comment_id=10100119202429212", "anchor": "fb-10100119201366342_10100119202429212", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Elliot team building maximization", "timestamp": "1572566674"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1572566946"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119199095892?comment_id=10100119201366342&reply_comment_id=10100119203337392", "anchor": "fb-10100119201366342_10100119203337392", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Elliot I didn't add it, but yes", "timestamp": "1572566974"}, {"author": "Dagon", "source_link": "https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/La4v9GBcqx6tij2FX#uptsqBy32Za4qfC33", "anchor": "lw-uptsqBy32Za4qfC33", "service": "lw", "text": "The cheering squad thing doesn't add anything to the question, does it? Cheering or sitting down has the same lack of impact, correct?
Interestingly (or not), from your initial description I ASSUMED you'd pause and re-acquire opponents for everyone between each contest, so it would be fully single-elimination. Your variant where everyone matches and plays at their own pace seems insane - it's obviously broken for exactly the reason you state: the winning strategy is to pick your opponent as slowly as possible, preferably when they're the only other competitor remaining.
Why would anyone play in such a tourney? I guess it becomes a slow bicycle race if you add that you'll be eliminated if you're noticed to be slow-playing. But then it's a weird game where part of the rules is that not everyone can be aware of the rules.", "timestamp": 1572567295}, {"author": "jkaufman", "source_link": "https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/La4v9GBcqx6tij2FX#eHwacDPPFiCXi4mCZ", "anchor": "lw-eHwacDPPFiCXi4mCZ", "service": "lw", "text": "→ The cheering squad doesn't affect the rules, but has been part of this every time I've been in one of these team building exercises because of, well, team building.\n", "timestamp": 1572620841}, {"author": "Dagon", "source_link": "https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/La4v9GBcqx6tij2FX#CwDjWfbCe4ky27HeG", "anchor": "lw-CwDjWfbCe4ky27HeG", "service": "lw", "text": "→ → Ah, I'd never seen this at a conference, and I _have_ played in real-money rock-paper-scissors tournaments (which were strict single-elimination, with random assignment), so I figured it was some proposed mechanism for actually deciding something.
As a team-building excercise, there's an additional complication in that the definition of "win" is debatable. If there's no prize and no consequences of early or late elimination, I suspect my utility would be improved by simply not trying to optimize anything, or perhaps by just using https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PoorPredictableRock and being "out" as soon as people realized I was serious. ", "timestamp": 1572637793}, {"author": "Bil", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119199095892?comment_id=10100119213856312", "anchor": "fb-10100119213856312", "service": "fb", "text": "\"You can also try to win by predicting your opponent's choices,\" Next time you play, try selecting what your opponent chose the previous round.", "timestamp": "1572569779"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119199095892?comment_id=10100119213856312&reply_comment_id=10100119214554912", "anchor": "fb-10100119213856312_10100119214554912", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Now I know how to beat you ;)", "timestamp": "1572570109"}, {"author": "Frederic", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119199095892?comment_id=10100119214964092", "anchor": "fb-10100119214964092", "service": "fb", "text": "You can download the AI that analyzes opponent hand gestures and link it to a camera and some sort of tactile feedback to make you unbeatable.", "timestamp": "1572570361"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119199095892?comment_id=10100119214964092&reply_comment_id=10100119227129712", "anchor": "fb-10100119214964092_10100119227129712", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Frederic what makes the AI so good? Recognizing what gesture someone else is about to make?", "timestamp": "1572574167"}, {"author": "Frederic", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119199095892?comment_id=10100119214964092&reply_comment_id=10100119243282342", "anchor": "fb-10100119214964092_10100119243282342", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Yeah.", "timestamp": "1572580949"}, {"author": "Frederic", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119199095892?comment_id=10100119214964092&reply_comment_id=10100119243526852", "anchor": "fb-10100119214964092_10100119243526852", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I don\u2019t think this would actually work; it could not get you the info quickly enough.
You can do better than chance, particularly with a repeated contest, assuming your opponent is not randomizing, but that\u2019s not a huge edge.", "timestamp": "1572581228"}, {"author": "Frederic", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119199095892?comment_id=10100119214964092&reply_comment_id=10100119243731442", "anchor": "fb-10100119214964092_10100119243731442", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Claude Shannon built a Rock Paper Scissors bot that is now at the MIT museum. http://william-poundstone.com/.../how-i-beat-the-mind...", "timestamp": "1572581367"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1572571122"}, {"author": "Kevin", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119199095892?comment_id=10100119233756432", "anchor": "fb-10100119233756432", "service": "fb", "text": "Sounds like great way to identify the antisocial overcompetetive crowd at a conference!
I play this game with kids, using outdoor voices of course. It's called Rockstar, and the cheering squad is their \"entourage\" which loudly chants their name. It's one of my favorites.
Kids are super smart and apparently the dynamics of binary trees are filly visible to certain ten year olds. About half the time, That One Kid tries to hack the game, exactly as you've described. That either turns into a great conversation later about what the point of play is and how acting outside the spirit of the game interferes with everyone enjoying it; or it just gives me good information that I have an overthinker in the mix.
The way to fix the game, of course, is to build a healthy culture that values silly play and doesn't value beating your friends. (Or play a different game that's less susceptible to asocial hacks, but that's a workaround rather than a fix.)", "timestamp": "1572577020"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119199095892?comment_id=10100119233756432&reply_comment_id=10100119277259252", "anchor": "fb-10100119233756432_10100119277259252", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Kevin you can also fix it by only letting people start round N after everyone has finished round N-1", "timestamp": "1572610610"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119199095892?comment_id=10100119233756432&reply_comment_id=10100119277334102", "anchor": "fb-10100119233756432_10100119277334102", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Kevin I disagree that understanding the game and figuring out how to maximize your chances of winning is something we should be discouraging though ;)", "timestamp": "1572610682"}, {"author": "Kevin", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119199095892?comment_id=10100119233756432&reply_comment_id=10100119279998762", "anchor": "fb-10100119233756432_10100119279998762", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Hmmm, I feel strongly that's a healthy behavior in some situations, and not in others. Strategic problem solving is a *fantastic* skill to learn, but applying those skills can interrupt other learning too... specifically certain kinds of social and somatic learning.
Ever seen puppies wrestle? It's a key component of that play that nobody wins, because the moment somebody wins the game is over, and nobody wants the game to be over. In play, continuing the play is a major part of the objective. Since non-winnership is necessary to prolong the game, the participants will modulate their effort to ensure non-winnership. There is a way in which strategizing can undermine this spirit.
A game whose opportunity is clearly playful team building, with no hard benefit for individual winning, is a great example. Maximizing your individual winning there doesn't feel good to me- whether you're successful or not, it switches from an 'us' space to a 'me' space. It would be easy to point out differences between puppies wrestling and Rockstar, but I think the differences are largely moot.
Every now and then I see an exchange like this: \"Dude, what are you doing?\" \"Trying to win.\" \"Come on, just play the game.\" That speaks to the impact as well as anything I could say.
Ironically, my family never taught me to pay attention to the social fabric around me and notice how my way of participating shifts the focus and and feel of the space. Living with your family, y'all helped me start noticing people, context, approach, and timing. I think you're really good at that noticing, Jeff.
And I think a lot of others aren't, which is part of why I value the social learning opportunity here, and maybe why hacking the game feels less like just another way of being playful than it otherwise might.", "timestamp": "1572612814"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119199095892?comment_id=10100119233756432&reply_comment_id=10100119355287882", "anchor": "fb-10100119233756432_10100119355287882", "service": "fb", "text": "→ For me plenty of noncompetitive games (including playful wrestling...) are fun, but it's usually not very fun to simultaneously optimize for winning and also worry about social constraints like \"will my friends think this was a nice way to play the game.\"", "timestamp": "1572641178"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119199095892?comment_id=10100119233756432&reply_comment_id=10100119357663122", "anchor": "fb-10100119233756432_10100119357663122", "service": "fb", "text": "→ This game seems like an especially good example of one I wouldn't like because the only real strategy for trying to win is pushing the boundaries of the social constraints.", "timestamp": "1572641317"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119199095892?comment_id=10100119233756432&reply_comment_id=10100119365716982", "anchor": "fb-10100119233756432_10100119365716982", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Yes, this game is broken
(Hence \"Breaking Rockstar\" and not \"Optimal Play in Rockstar\")", "timestamp": "1572642787"}, {"author": "Connie", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119199095892?comment_id=10100119233756432&reply_comment_id=10100119599263952", "anchor": "fb-10100119233756432_10100119599263952", "service": "fb", "text": "→ It never occurred to me that the point of this game was to win. If anything, I always wanted to get out early", "timestamp": "1572785567"}, {"author": "Hollis", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119199095892?comment_id=10100119233756432&reply_comment_id=10100119610820792", "anchor": "fb-10100119233756432_10100119610820792", "service": "fb", "text": "→ A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.", "timestamp": "1572793722"}, {"author": "Hollis", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119199095892?comment_id=10100119572871842", "anchor": "fb-10100119572871842", "service": "fb", "text": "This... strikes me as a very poor way to build teams.", "timestamp": "1572754101"}, {"author": "Hollis", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119199095892?comment_id=10100119606210032", "anchor": "fb-10100119606210032", "service": "fb", "text": "\"Let's build teams by forcing everyone to play a contrived game in which literally all but one of the 'teammates' lose.\"", "timestamp": "1572790504"}, {"author": "Julie", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119199095892?comment_id=10100119606210032&reply_comment_id=10100119654373512", "anchor": "fb-10100119606210032_10100119654373512", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Ehh. We did this at YDW one year and it was actually really fun to cheer for people as the game went along. I think that everyone knows that Rock Paper Scissors is essentially random (unless you go in with some kind of fancy strategy, which some people do but most people don't) so it's not like anyone had any great stakes in winning or losing. I can think of worse ways to create teams.", "timestamp": "1572809505"}, {"author": "Hollis", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100119199095892?comment_id=10100119606210032&reply_comment_id=10100119661055122", "anchor": "fb-10100119606210032_10100119661055122", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Julie True. However, although I haven't been to YDW, I've been to another similar events to wonder how much of the team-building work has already been done prior to the event starting, and whether this instance is more like \"a bunch of friends and friend-adjacent people playing a silly game\" rather than \"a team-building exercise\".", "timestamp": "1572812266"}]}