{"items": [{"author": "Loren", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100114301161392?comment_id=10100114304839022", "anchor": "fb-10100114304839022", "service": "fb", "text": "My niece has five children under the age of six. I have been going over there one afternoon a week and taking the three older ones to the park, reading to them, holding the baby twins, tidying the kitchen or living room, or whatever else looks like it needs doing. What the three older ones have gravitated to are games where they crawl all over me on the couch. I think with the parenting spread so thin {mom works full time and dad works more than full time} they could use more adult physical contact and attention, but they prefer this to snuggling. I just show up and don't have to make any life decisions, just play with them and love them. It's been a gift for all of us.", "timestamp": "1570220155"}, {"author": "Gianna", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100114301161392?comment_id=10100114327039532", "anchor": "fb-10100114327039532", "service": "fb", "text": "I've only half jokingly remarked to my mother that she had the best parenting arrangement: one kid, four parents. My parents divorced when I was a toddler and both remarried. I attribute a lot of their saintly amounts of patience with me as a child to the fact that they all got a complete break from taking care of me for half of each week. And to your points above, a lot of the reason it went smoothly at the time was that my mother clearly made all the rules; everyone else followed them. I have feelings about that now, but at the time it avoided some issues. Now, with two kids and two parents in our house, I think it would be great to live in cohousing or some kind of shared household with friends. And I'm often in awe of single parents, especially those with multiple kids.", "timestamp": "1570228482"}, {"author": "Divia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100114301161392?comment_id=10100114329150302", "anchor": "fb-10100114329150302", "service": "fb", "text": "I\u2019m surprised you left genetics off the list of things people want out of parenting. I think it\u2019s pretty common to care a lot about it.", "timestamp": "1570229441"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100114301161392?comment_id=10100114329150302&reply_comment_id=10100114356525442", "anchor": "fb-10100114329150302_10100114356525442", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Divia is it? From one perspective it's the only thing we should care about, but I'm not sure that's actually a way many people are wired. For example, consider cases where people end up raising their niblings as their children, perhaps because something happened to the birth parents. Do people feel less close to their same-side niblings than their opposite-side (unrelated genetically) ones? Is this a common source of conflict among lesbian couples considering conceiving with a sperm donor? I don't think I would feel any differently about my kids if I found out they weren't genetically mine?", "timestamp": "1570240938"}, {"author": "Ajeya", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100114301161392?comment_id=10100114329150302&reply_comment_id=10100114388426512", "anchor": "fb-10100114329150302_10100114388426512", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I feel like a lot of people definitely choose to raise genetically unrelated kids, and most (?) people who had bonded with a child wouldn\u2019t change their feelings if they later found out the kid had been switched in a freak hospital accident, but I\u2019d guess most people who set out to be parents care some about getting to see themselves and their partner reflected in their kid, getting to relate to their unique quirks, etc. This feels appealing to me.", "timestamp": "1570262404"}, {"author": "Henry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100114301161392?comment_id=10100114329150302&reply_comment_id=10100114390048262", "anchor": "fb-10100114329150302_10100114390048262", "service": "fb", "text": "→ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinderella_effect. Step-parents mistreat their (non biological) children at a much higher rate than biological parents do", "timestamp": "1570265400"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100114301161392?comment_id=10100114329150302&reply_comment_id=10100114395691952", "anchor": "fb-10100114329150302_10100114395691952", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Henry do we see the same imbalance in families with a mixture of adopted and genetic children? Or with in-vitro where one parent is unrepresented? I would predict not. My model with step children is more that sometimes the step parent doesn't fully think of the step child as their child because the step parent neither chose to have them nor has been their parent their whole life.", "timestamp": "1570272626"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100114301161392?comment_id=10100114329150302&reply_comment_id=10100114395786762", "anchor": "fb-10100114329150302_10100114395786762", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Ajeya I do think that's something that a lot of people care about, but I also think that for most couples if they found that one partner was infertile (and in a world where using donor gametes is fully covered by insurance and has no downsides) would still want to go ahead with having kids.", "timestamp": "1570272787"}, {"author": "Denise", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100114301161392?comment_id=10100114329150302&reply_comment_id=10100114421679872", "anchor": "fb-10100114329150302_10100114421679872", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Maybe you should talk actual numbers here. I\u2019ve been surprised in the past how many people care about it. My feelings are the same as Jeff\u2019s.", "timestamp": "1570288267"}, {"author": "Divia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100114301161392?comment_id=10100114329150302&reply_comment_id=10100114445641852", "anchor": "fb-10100114329150302_10100114445641852", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Lots ofpeople try pretty hard to have genetic kids even when it\u2019s hard or expensive. I do think people would feel closer to their siblings\u2019 kids than to their partner\u2019s siblings\u2019 kids.
I suspect with lesbian couples the one who births the kid is more likely to be the primary caregiver.
I would also guess that people felt closer to the kids of their identical twin than kids of their fraternal twin.
It\u2019s hard to gather data on this type of thing, but I think genetics often matter.", "timestamp": "1570296884"}, {"author": "Divia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100114301161392?comment_id=10100114329150302&reply_comment_id=10100114452283542", "anchor": "fb-10100114329150302_10100114452283542", "service": "fb", "text": "→ My impressions is that adopted children are treated well, though I haven\u2019t seen all that much data.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/.../are-adopted-children...
However, given that adopted children have parents who tried really hard and spent lots of money to have children, I think the correct control group is IVF kids, not bio kids in general. On top of that, I assume people who adopt almost always choose to do it because they know themselves and genetics aren\u2019t a deal breaker for them. So I question how much it generalizes.", "timestamp": "1570300169"}, {"author": "Susi", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100114301161392?comment_id=10100114339125312", "anchor": "fb-10100114339125312", "service": "fb", "text": "Just reality checking, that you are aware that you and likely the group of people reading this are far more likely to have given parenting that much thought than the average person. I would suggest that for a lot of folks it's \"just what one does\" living the life script.", "timestamp": "1570233997"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100114301161392?comment_id=10100114339125312&reply_comment_id=10100114345003532", "anchor": "fb-10100114339125312_10100114345003532", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Susi I would expect that to make co-parenting with several other people work even less well. People's sense of \"just how one does it\" may conflict for a lot of parenting decisions, and if you aren't used to thinking a lot about them then resolving them is harder.", "timestamp": "1570236605"}, {"author": "Ajeya", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100114301161392?comment_id=10100114339125312&reply_comment_id=10100114353027452", "anchor": "fb-10100114339125312_10100114353027452", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff I think it would probably make co-parenting with a bunch of folks from different backgrounds a lot harder because they would have fewer tools to reflect and negotiate, but might make co-equal parenting with people who have very similar upbringing easier, because if you're unreflective you're probably less likely to feel strongly about doing things differently from how you've been taught. I think extended families in which grandparents and uncles/aunts get a lot of authority over kids' lives work fine in India and other Eastern cultures for this reason.", "timestamp": "1570239463"}, {"author": "Ajeya", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100114301161392?comment_id=10100114339125312&reply_comment_id=10100114353082342", "anchor": "fb-10100114339125312_10100114353082342", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Traditional extended families also get at the genetics interest Divia mentioned above", "timestamp": "1570239517"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100114301161392?comment_id=10100114339125312&reply_comment_id=10100114355627242", "anchor": "fb-10100114339125312_10100114355627242", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Ajeya yes, I think if people already have very similar senses of how to raise kids coordination costs are far lower. If I'm hanging out with other Americans and their kids, we can't discipline each other's children because we all are operating under different rules. If I'm hanging out with family and one of my niblings does something, it's totally different.", "timestamp": "1570240476"}, {"author": "Susi", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100114301161392?comment_id=10100114339125312&reply_comment_id=10100114361625222", "anchor": "fb-10100114339125312_10100114361625222", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman I guess I was more responding to your initial question on what might motivate folks to have kids / spend the effort though I'm guessing that even on the actual questions raised my point is applicable to some degree - if you're having kids because you never questioned whether or not you should or want to have kids, then you might subscribed to the kids grandparents it aunts and uncles to fill the role of pampering your kids and not intervene there...", "timestamp": "1570242917"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1570247744"}, {"author": "Allison", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100114301161392?comment_id=10100114341789972", "anchor": "fb-10100114341789972", "service": "fb", "text": "I actually don't think I've ever heard people joke / say that more than two parents is ideal, but maybe I haven't paid close attention.
I think that grandparents (and extended family) are incredibly important in raising kids. With extended family, the decision-making still largely rests on the parents and when questions arrive or parents aren't around, the probability of similar philosophies is high. But then kids can enjoy the benefits of having more adults and the parents can get some relief.", "timestamp": "1570235296"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100114301161392?comment_id=10100114341789972&reply_comment_id=10100114344519502", "anchor": "fb-10100114341789972_10100114344519502", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Allison I may be in more circles with more poly people?", "timestamp": "1570236438"}, {"author": "Jan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100114301161392?comment_id=10100114341789972&reply_comment_id=10100114353511482", "anchor": "fb-10100114341789972_10100114353511482", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Well, there are all those countries where men take multiple wives ... not defending the practice, but often the wives are quoted as saying they like the arrangement because they get a break from child care.", "timestamp": "1570239678"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100114301161392?comment_id=10100114341789972&reply_comment_id=10100114355697102", "anchor": "fb-10100114341789972_10100114355697102", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jan I think a lot of those cases fall into the \"culture with high agreement on how to raise kids\" discussion above?", "timestamp": "1570240535"}, {"author": "Allison", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100114301161392?comment_id=10100114341789972&reply_comment_id=10100114374938542", "anchor": "fb-10100114341789972_10100114374938542", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff, regarding circles, that's almost certainly true, and also kind of humorous given my religious affiliation! I guess I'm just surprised that given that context, it's doesn't come up more. Like Jan mentioned, I've heard people discuss the advantages to having sister-wives, but it's never been framed in terms of having an ideal number of parents.", "timestamp": "1570248526"}, {"author": "Kaj", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100114301161392?comment_id=10100114341789972&reply_comment_id=10100114411215842", "anchor": "fb-10100114341789972_10100114411215842", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I recall hearing a friend commenting something along the lines of \"three caregivers per one two-year-old is the minimum ratio for ensuring that none of the people involved goes insane\"; I forget who exactly said this and they might have been poly, but I got the impression that having experience of a 2yo. was a much bigger factor in making this comment than their poly orientation was.", "timestamp": "1570281872"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100114301161392?comment_id=10100114341789972&reply_comment_id=10100114417702842", "anchor": "fb-10100114341789972_10100114417702842", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Kaj I suspect it depends a lot on the 2yo", "timestamp": "1570286404"}, {"author": "Viliam", "source_link": "https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/ZRHLrw4S5P2NYcw3n#tKYN6YnA4k6wozPuh", "anchor": "lw-tKYN6YnA4k6wozPuh", "service": "lw", "text": "I think the optimal number of parents is probably two, more or less because of the reasons you mention: who has the power to make the big/final/meta decisions. On the other hand, I think that more people than usual could be involved in roles equivalent to grandparents / aunts / uncles.
When good friends with kids of similar age live close to each other, a good strategy is to put the kids together, one day at one home, another day at the other home. Kids interacting with each other will remove some burden from the parent/babysitter (yes, sometimes you have to resolve conflicts among them, but it is still a net win), and getting free time in return for extra babysitting is a great deal. Similarly to how having two kids is actually not twice as difficult as having one, because the two kids sometimes interact with each other instead of requiring your attention 100% of time, and taking two kids to a playground or making a meal for two kids is about the same work as doing it for one kid.
How much of agreement do you need to have with people in the "babysitting" roles? Seems to me that kids are able to learn that different rules apply in different places. (I see my kids behave differently at home, at kindergarten, at grandma. Kids often take an afternoon nap at kindergarten, even if it's voluntary, while refusing to do the same at home. Grandma is more fun, but she can use the threat of "I'll send you home if you misbehave".) So the question is where the difference is okay, and where it is not acceptable. For example, if you don't want your kids to get hurt, you will require the same (or higher; that's okay) safety standards from anyone else. On the other hand, it is okay to have different toys at different places (not just in the obvious sense, but even with rules like "no watercolors allowed in this house").Parents can have different ideas on what is safe, how discipline should work, how much help to give, how to do food, value of different kinds of toys/screens/games, co-sleeping, night training, potty training, is it ok to microwave baby milk, what rules to have for sharing, how structured the day should be, when they're ready to go outside alone, how to do money, what to do for childcare, when bedtime should be, what's important in schooling, how important is predictability, how to handle various unique challenges most kids have in some form, how to do presents, when to let them try a thing, what medical treatments make sense, how much to let them make their own decisions, whether to let them ask people for things when it's kind of rude, how much to push them, when to encourage an interest, how to build responsibility, and how to balance all kinds of tricky tradeoffs.
With my wife, we can agree on most of this easily, the major disagreements being about discipline. Yep, adding more people with more opinions would make the conflict resolution much worse.
On the other hand, grandma has different opinions on multiple things, but in practice the differences don't matter much. If she thinks different toys are better, she is free to buy them and have them at her home. Kids sleep at home, so her opinions on bedtime are irrelevant (and when the kids sleep at her place, it's "her place, her rules"). She thinks kids should not read and write before the school age, so she does not do these activities with them (though she was pleasantly surprised to receive an SMS written in ALL CAPS and without spaces one day); that's perfectly okay because there are many other things to do. I suppose we do not have substantial disagreements on things that actually matter.
I suppose the lesson is that there are differences that cannot be overcome (atheism vs fundamentalist religion, anti-vaxer vs pro-vaxer, etc.), but smaller differences can be easily solved by having "different house, different rules". Within a house, there should be an agreement on rules. The parents should be one house. This is why increasing the number of parents makes things complicated, but increasing the number of houses does not.", "timestamp": 1570304189}, {"author": "Alicorn", "source_link": "https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/ZRHLrw4S5P2NYcw3n#moeFTHHGE5GZNqYQp", "anchor": "lw-moeFTHHGE5GZNqYQp", "service": "lw", "text": "We've got multiple parents for ours - we sort of fell into the arrangement (one moved in with us when kiddo the first was a few weeks old, it gradually became obvious that if she ever left he was going to take that like a divorce and we should be thinking about how to keep her around, eventually she added her primary partner in the manner of a stepparent). But only I am primary caretaker (everybody else has a job), so while I rely on the others for advice and discuss things with them, what's sustainable and practical for me tends to trump - if I cannot be around some noise a toy makes, the toy does not get to have batteries, etc. We agree on the broad strokes of what considerations are important in general, and implementation details are just a thing the kids will learn vary between people - for example, there are a lot of things my son is only allowed to do if he can locate someone who is willing to supervise the activity and be responsible for any cleanup (today this was "eat shredded cheese", which usually winds up all over the floor, but a roommate who isn't even one of the parent collective was up for helping him with that this time).", "timestamp": 1570330284}, {"author": "MakoYass", "source_link": "https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/ZRHLrw4S5P2NYcw3n#LXSZWK2N62Q5v9aFG", "anchor": "lw-LXSZWK2N62Q5v9aFG", "service": "lw", "text": "[silly joke comment]For example, I do the kids breakfast and pack Lily's lunch in the morning (hence the thermos experimentation). I then pay attention to what comes home uneaten in the lunchbox to try to figure out what I should send next time.
That's how you get survivorship bias, you have to look at the lunches that don't make it back, not the ones that do.
I'm struggling to figure out which module of my brain is misfiring right now. I think on some level I might have just not internalised an essentialist enough account of survivorship bias so all I have are analogies. Anything resembling planes coming back to base with damage on them will set off the alarm.", "timestamp": 1570334294}, {"author": "jkaufman", "source_link": "https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/ZRHLrw4S5P2NYcw3n#ShEkLnSw6tTzbNx95", "anchor": "lw-ShEkLnSw6tTzbNx95", "service": "lw", "text": "→ So far the lunchbox has always come back. While normally I treat individual foods failing to come back as a good thing, if I packed something that resulted in the whole lunchbox failing to come back it would be important not to count that as a massive success.\n", "timestamp": 1570359388}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100114301161392?comment_id=10100114669458322", "anchor": "fb-10100114669458322", "service": "fb", "text": "I think you've mentioned that kids are very good at learning different ways of interacting with different adults, or different rules for different people.
Given that, I'm not sure why we would worry so much about different parenting styles?
But yes, all of the parents would need to be on the same page about some matters, especially safety stuff.", "timestamp": "1570413149"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100114301161392?comment_id=10100114669458322&reply_comment_id=10100114671609012", "anchor": "fb-10100114669458322_10100114671609012", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Different styles gets messy when it's common for multiple caregivers to be present at once, and the kid doesn't know whose rules apply", "timestamp": "1570414469"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100114301161392?comment_id=10100114669458322&reply_comment_id=10100114702117872", "anchor": "fb-10100114669458322_10100114702117872", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman makes sense.", "timestamp": "1570446006"}]}