{"items": [{"author": "Josh", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100107303454852?comment_id=10100107304782192", "anchor": "fb-10100107304782192", "service": "fb", "text": "The other problem is the racist history of the rhyme, but there are alternatives, so your main actual point still stands.", "timestamp": "1566269443"}, {"author": "Todd", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100107303454852?comment_id=10100107304782192&reply_comment_id=10100107308010722", "anchor": "fb-10100107304782192_10100107308010722", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Wikipedia indicates that the original rhyme had no racist aspects to it; those were a variant that developed in later American versions. YMMV on whether that matters or not.", "timestamp": "1566270720"}, {"author": "Josh", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100107303454852?comment_id=10100107304782192&reply_comment_id=10100108107388762", "anchor": "fb-10100107304782192_10100108107388762", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Well, it probably matters to the black kids who have heard it (or heard of it) the racist way, and I'm more inclined to make a tiny amount of effort not to make their day more awful, than to cite Wikipedia and hope that they're persuaded that they shouldn't be offended.", "timestamp": "1566708258"}, {"author": "Todd", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100107303454852?comment_id=10100107307890962", "anchor": "fb-10100107307890962", "service": "fb", "text": "There have got to be better randomization schemes that even little kids can understand, but which don't have a predetermined outcome, like doing odds & evens and eliminating the larger group (though that has the problem that sometimes it stalls).
That said, if you're going to change the rhyme anyway, why not preserve the meter of the last line by saying \"O-U-T goes Y-O-U!\"? Also it doesn't rhyme :(", "timestamp": "1566270657"}, {"author": "Jacob", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100107303454852?comment_id=10100107307890962&reply_comment_id=10100107308155432", "anchor": "fb-10100107307890962_10100107308155432", "service": "fb", "text": "→ That wouldn't preserve the meter regardless.", "timestamp": "1566270898"}, {"author": "Todd", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100107303454852?comment_id=10100107307890962&reply_comment_id=10100107308240262", "anchor": "fb-10100107307890962_10100107308240262", "service": "fb", "text": "→ How would it not? Same number of syllables, and same emphases.", "timestamp": "1566270957"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100107303454852?comment_id=10100107307890962&reply_comment_id=10100107308295152", "anchor": "fb-10100107307890962_10100107308295152", "service": "fb", "text": "→ \"eliminating the larger group\"
You want to eliminate the smaller group, for the reasons in the post.", "timestamp": "1566270983"}, {"author": "Todd", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100107303454852?comment_id=10100107307890962&reply_comment_id=10100107308365012", "anchor": "fb-10100107307890962_10100107308365012", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman Fair enough.", "timestamp": "1566271068"}, {"author": "Jacob", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100107303454852?comment_id=10100107307890962&reply_comment_id=10100107308429882", "anchor": "fb-10100107307890962_10100107308429882", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Emphases are completely different; spelling something out emphasizes every syllable. (Unless W is one of the letters.)", "timestamp": "1566271114"}, {"author": "Todd", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100107303454852?comment_id=10100107307890962&reply_comment_id=10100107308704332", "anchor": "fb-10100107307890962_10100107308704332", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Disagree on the emphases. Spelling something out is fairly flexible in terms of emphasis, and it's easy to just emphasize the outer letters of 'out' and 'you' in this case imo.", "timestamp": "1566271287"}, {"author": "Todd", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100107303454852?comment_id=10100107307890962&reply_comment_id=10100107308849042", "anchor": "fb-10100107307890962_10100107308849042", "service": "fb", "text": "→ You could probably also just come up with something else entirely that rhymed, like \"you are it so out you go\"", "timestamp": "1566271419"}, {"author": "Danni", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100107303454852?comment_id=10100107307890962&reply_comment_id=10100107310840052", "anchor": "fb-10100107307890962_10100107310840052", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I also object to this version where the last line does not rhyme. The version I learned repeated the 1st line as the 4th line, so all lines ended with -o.", "timestamp": "1566272751"}, {"author": "Tony", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100107303454852?comment_id=10100107307890962&reply_comment_id=10100107330201252", "anchor": "fb-10100107307890962_10100107330201252", "service": "fb", "text": "→ In my elementary school it had become conflated with another traditional formula. The first 3 lines were as above, followed by \"My mother says to pick this one,\" with one tap or point on each word. I don't think we ever used it to eliminate someone.", "timestamp": "1566299571"}, {"author": "Allison", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100107303454852?comment_id=10100107307890962&reply_comment_id=10100107366239032", "anchor": "fb-10100107307890962_10100107366239032", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Tony mine was \"my mother said to pick the very best one, and the very best one is you\" . or you spell out Y O U, so that makes it even harder to predict", "timestamp": "1566322634"}, {"author": "Jillian", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100107303454852?comment_id=10100107307890962&reply_comment_id=10100108115562382", "anchor": "fb-10100107307890962_10100108115562382", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I learned it with the same first three lines, another line of eenie meenie mynie now, then \"my mother told me to pick the very best one and you are not it!\" Always struck me as inefficient.", "timestamp": "1566720163"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1566744906"}, {"author": "rossry", "source_link": "https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/frngWKRpRdHPXxnCC#zZX9NTLecCKLGK65P", "anchor": "lw-zZX9NTLecCKLGK65P", "service": "lw", "text": "Another (related?) advantage is that the incentives to manipulate and catch manipulation are much better balanced with the negative (\"you're out\") version. Consider:\n\nPerfectly cheating in the positive version improves your chances of winning by (n-1)/n, and stopping you from doing so improves each other person's chances by 1/n.\nPerfectly cheating in a round of the negative version improves your chances of winning by 1/(k(k-1)), where k is the number of people in to start the round. Stopping you from doing so improves each other person's chances by the same amount.\nThe total (summed) incentive to manipulate in the negative version is (n-1)/n, the same as in the positive case.\n\n", "timestamp": 1566298186}, {"author": "maximkazhenkov", "source_link": "https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/frngWKRpRdHPXxnCC#qASMkFyFfFtx2eFFX", "anchor": "lw-qASMkFyFfFtx2eFFX", "service": "lw", "text": "→ Perfectly cheating in a round of the negative version improves your chances of winning by 1/(k(k-1)), where k is the number of people in to start the round. Stopping you from doing so improves each other person's chances by the same amount.
I think 1/(k(k-1)) is the improvement in each other person's chance of getting into the next round, not the improvement in chance of winning the whole thing. The point still holds though since the absolute numbers are so much smaller in any single round.", "timestamp": 1566377082}, {"author": "rossry", "source_link": "https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/frngWKRpRdHPXxnCC#uMJxtrpwTB5P4SXzk", "anchor": "lw-uMJxtrpwTB5P4SXzk", "service": "lw", "text": "→ → Oh, you're right. The net incentive to catch cheaters is actually... 1/(k(k-1)^2), then? The relative incentive story is worse, though still better in total than the positive version, and better still if you assume a constant-size disincentive to be caught cheating.\n", "timestamp": 1566399324}, {"author": "Rohin", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100107303454852?comment_id=10100107357401742", "anchor": "fb-10100107357401742", "service": "fb", "text": "> Divide the kids into three groups, and do negative eeny meeny miny moe on the groups.
three groups --> groups of three", "timestamp": "1566317459"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100107303454852?comment_id=10100107357401742&reply_comment_id=10100107359831872", "anchor": "fb-10100107357401742_10100107359831872", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Rohin I think I do mean three groups? The idea is each round will eliminate 1/3 of the kids", "timestamp": "1566318978"}, {"author": "Rohin", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100107303454852?comment_id=10100107357401742&reply_comment_id=10100107398105172", "anchor": "fb-10100107357401742_10100107398105172", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Oh I misunderstood the sentence as \"within each group run negative eeny meeny miny moe to eliminate one child per group\", it makes sense now.", "timestamp": "1566339578"}, {"author": "Dagon", "source_link": "https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/frngWKRpRdHPXxnCC#RcNyf85tyTdy28d87", "anchor": "lw-RcNyf85tyTdy28d87", "service": "lw", "text": "Ehn. For kids who will EVER accept this as fair, you're putting too much thought into politics. If the kids are this manipulable, they'll probably accept your authority in the one-shot case as well.
Also, more iterations gives them more time to realize that you're cheating (by shifts in how to count syllables) or that the game is fully deterministic (and you're cheating by deciding who to start with).
This is only usable for such low-stakes cases where the participants don't mind that it's not fair. And in those cases, don't waste time on pointless complexity. Of course, if this is part of the entertainment, I reverse that advice - choose the single-elimination method to extend the duration of the tension of not knowing.", "timestamp": 1566317688}, {"author": "Anna", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100107303454852?comment_id=10100107363873772", "anchor": "fb-10100107363873772", "service": "fb", "text": "As a kid, I knew how to predict the ending if there were only 2 participants. I knew 2 versions of the rhyme but they both have the same outcome with only 2 participants:
Eeny, meeny, miny, moe,
Catch a tiger by the toe.
If he hollers, let him go,
Eeny, meeny, miny, moe,
My mother told me to pick the very best one
And I pick Y. O. U.!
Eeny, meeny, miny, moe,
Catch a tiger by the toe.
If he hollers, let him go,
Eeny, meeny, miny, moe,
My mother told me to pick the very best one
And you are not it!", "timestamp": "1566321206"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100107303454852?comment_id=10100107363873772&reply_comment_id=10100107366313882", "anchor": "fb-10100107363873772_10100107366313882", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Anna your two versions seem to have different numbers of syllables in the last line?", "timestamp": "1566322655"}, {"author": "Anna", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100107303454852?comment_id=10100107363873772&reply_comment_id=10100107384103232", "anchor": "fb-10100107363873772_10100107384103232", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Yes, which is why they work out the same for 2 participants. One has an even number of syllables and chooses the person it lands on; the other has an odd number of syllables and rules out the person it lands on.", "timestamp": "1566332403"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100107303454852?comment_id=10100107363873772&reply_comment_id=10100107385435562", "anchor": "fb-10100107363873772_10100107385435562", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I guess would call that working out not the same?", "timestamp": "1566333560"}, {"author": "James", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100107303454852?comment_id=10100107363873772&reply_comment_id=10100107406448452", "anchor": "fb-10100107363873772_10100107406448452", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I learned both \"you are it\" and \"you are not it\" versions, adding some extra surprise when the speaker chooses a variant", "timestamp": "1566344119"}, {"author": "Laura", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100107303454852?comment_id=10100107363873772&reply_comment_id=10100107524621632", "anchor": "fb-10100107363873772_10100107524621632", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Kids in my school switched between those two options and were always accused of switching at the last minute so it would end in their friend's favor.", "timestamp": "1566411006"}, {"author": "Mandy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100107303454852?comment_id=10100107409477382", "anchor": "fb-10100107409477382", "service": "fb", "text": "Emily Claire Mason look here lol", "timestamp": "1566345913"}, {"author": "Adam", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100107303454852?comment_id=10100107519157582", "anchor": "fb-10100107519157582", "service": "fb", "text": "Ooo, now do Nim. \ud83d\ude01
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nim", "timestamp": "1566408002"}, {"author": "Laura", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100107303454852?comment_id=10100107524516842", "anchor": "fb-10100107524516842", "service": "fb", "text": "We learned to predict that one pretty easily. That's why we switched to Bubble Gum: \"Bubble gum, bubble gum, in a dish, how many pieces do you wish.\" The person who Wish lands on gets to say a number. The counter spells out the number: \"T-h-r-e-e spells three and you shall be it.\" Since you can't predict the what \"wish\" will say, it's much more random.", "timestamp": "1566410965"}, {"author": "kithpendragon", "source_link": "https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/frngWKRpRdHPXxnCC#7KBzHGsZG5DA22pCT", "anchor": "lw-7KBzHGsZG5DA22pCT", "service": "lw", "text": "Going through my exobrain, I found a note about this post that got my attention. Rereading it with more history under my belt and in the mid-2020 sociopolitical context, I came to wonder if it intentionally (if indirectly) calls out a pattern of abuse in history leading to the current state of patriarchy, white supremacy, and American \"democracy\" among others? Or was it simply an observation on a quirk in a children's game that just happens to be more broadly applicable than it first seemed?
#justCurious", "timestamp": 1597409431}, {"author": "jefftk", "source_link": "https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/frngWKRpRdHPXxnCC#XK2mnrkzg3KHb4xD8", "anchor": "lw-XK2mnrkzg3KHb4xD8", "service": "lw", "text": "→ As much as I would like to claim to be very insightful, I was mostly just thinking about how the children's game works. Sorry!\n", "timestamp": 1597449955}]}