{"items": [{"author": "Sarah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103938448352", "anchor": "fb-10100103938448352", "service": "fb", "text": "For the record: I am strongly in favor of switching to Robins for multiple reasons and really, really hope it takes hold.", "timestamp": "1564337073"}, {"author": "Jonah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103938448352&reply_comment_id=10100103946736742", "anchor": "fb-10100103938448352_10100103946736742", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Sarah I'd love to know your other reasons if you'd like to share. I don't think I'm aware of other problems with ravens.", "timestamp": "1564340713"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103938448352&reply_comment_id=10100103951961272", "anchor": "fb-10100103938448352_10100103951961272", "service": "fb", "text": "→ The main other objection to Ravens I've heard is that they have negative connotations, especially in other languages (French?)", "timestamp": "1564343366"}, {"author": "Sarah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103938448352&reply_comment_id=10100104010788382", "anchor": "fb-10100103938448352_10100104010788382", "service": "fb", "text": "→ 1) I\u2019ve heard folks complain they don\u2019t want to be compared to a carrion eater (even though Ravens are super cool birds).

2) The size differential between the two bird species leads to some folks still trying to ascribe gender to them because of sexual dimorphism and then being confused when the bigger, \u201cmore agressive\u201d bird is the \u201clady\u201d. Larks and Robins are much more similar and therefore make the \u201cBut Ravens aren\u2019t ladylike\u201d argument moot. Which I suppose could be a negative point to switching to Robin. I actually kind of like the gender non-conforming nature of Raven = Lady, but that said I\u2019d rather be able to squash another of the common objections to Larks/Ravens. Also the birds being more similar drives home the point that anyone can dance either role because they\u2019re not really that different.

3) Definitely support further inclusion of non-white folks as per the aforementioned reason to switch in response to feedback from Tlingit people.", "timestamp": "1564376913"}, {"author": "Jonah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103938448352&reply_comment_id=10100104026706482", "anchor": "fb-10100103938448352_10100104026706482", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Sarah Ah ok, interesting. I had heard 1 and 2 before, but only from people for whom, upon engaging them in discussion, it becomes clear that they really just oppose gender neutral role terms altogether and are just looking for holes to poke in every alternative to ladies/gents and leads/follows. Since I know this is not what you are doing, I'm a little confused by reason 2 in particular. Granting for the moment that bigger, more aggressive things are masculine, and granting for the moment that ravens are more masculine due not to their absolute size but to their size relative to larks--isn't the fact that these qualities are supposedly not \"lady-like\" precisely the point? The goal of gender neutral role terms is not to replace ladies/gents with euphemisms that still remind people of the respective traditional gender roles. In fact, would not choosing terms that did so inherently undermine the entire purpose of gender neutral terms in the first place? Isn't the goal to ultimately make it so that there is no correlation between people's gender and the role they dance? Or am I fundamentally misunderstanding what people have in mind when they talk about gender neutral role terms? As you say, replacing ladies and gents with terms that are as equal as possible in their gender implications is probably the best way to go. But I'm not sure that it's worse if the term replacing the traditionally female role happens to be the less feminine of the two terms. As you suggest, it might even be better in some ways. In any case, this is in some ways moot if we're switching from ravens to robins (which sounds good to me based on the original topic of this thread), but I wanted to respond anyway because it gets to the heart of the issue of why we are using gender free terms and I think it would be good to explore whether different people have different reasons for wanting this to happen.", "timestamp": "1564401892"}, {"author": "Jonah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103938448352&reply_comment_id=10100104028413062", "anchor": "fb-10100103938448352_10100104028413062", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Thinking about this for another moment it occurred to me that perhaps the people you are referring to in reason 2 are some of the very trans or gender non-conforming people that gender neutral role terms are meant to include. If that's the case then you'll get no argument from me! I'm just so used to seeing this view expressed by cis women who are \"offended\" at being compared to ravens, when the whole point is that the ravens dance role is supposed to not correlate to women, that it didn't even occur to me at first that this might be what you're saying.", "timestamp": "1564402958"}, {"author": "Adam", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103939171902", "anchor": "fb-10100103939171902", "service": "fb", "text": "Robins is fine, but why not just left and right?", "timestamp": "1564337308"}, {"author": "Katarina", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103939171902&reply_comment_id=10100103939356532", "anchor": "fb-10100103939171902_10100103939356532", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Generally because left and right are frequently used otherwise. \"Lefts allemande right\" is a clunky sentence and easy for a caller to slip up", "timestamp": "1564337392"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103939171902&reply_comment_id=10100103939685872", "anchor": "fb-10100103939171902_10100103939685872", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I believe callers who have tried Lefts/Rights have had trouble coming up with phrasing that sounds natural. As Katarina says, many standard phrases become clunky, and need to be reworded. At that point you might do better to go all the way to positional calling (https://www.jefftk.com/p/positional-calling)", "timestamp": "1564337448"}, {"author": "Marcus", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103940798642", "anchor": "fb-10100103940798642", "service": "fb", "text": "We had an \u201calternate role\u201d session at hash dance, and I liked lakes & rivers. Though positional calling works nicely too. (We do have mad robins, which makes using robin feel like overloading a term to me)", "timestamp": "1564337757"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103940798642&reply_comment_id=10100103942041152", "anchor": "fb-10100103940798642_10100103942041152", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Lakes/Rivers is currently my second choice, but:

* It's a larger change

* I don't think anyone has done a conflict search on those?

I do like that it's still L/R, though!", "timestamp": "1564338150"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103940798642&reply_comment_id=10100103942125982", "anchor": "fb-10100103940798642_10100103942125982", "service": "fb", "text": "→ As for Mad Robin, it's a rare enough term that I don't think it's a problem?", "timestamp": "1564338186"}, {"author": "Danner", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103940798642&reply_comment_id=10100103948158892", "anchor": "fb-10100103940798642_10100103948158892", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Heh, I think the only change to mad robin is without robin as a role, everyone kinda does the mad circling. If you call mad robin with larks/robins, it takes on a slightly different significance. I don't see any problem with that, just a difference.", "timestamp": "1564341584"}, {"author": "Dan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103940798642&reply_comment_id=10100103970005112", "anchor": "fb-10100103940798642_10100103970005112", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I've also heard complaints about the term \"mad robin\" vis-a-vis mental illness, so that may change too.", "timestamp": "1564352148"}, {"author": "Judy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103940798642&reply_comment_id=10100104005224532", "anchor": "fb-10100103940798642_10100104005224532", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Dan we could always use the now outdated and never-used square dance term \"sashay\" for a mad robin. As near as I can make out that's pretty much what it was. A Half Sashay you slide to trade places, right hand dancer in front of left hand dancer. A \"whole sashay\" or just \"sashay\" seems to have been danced pretty much like a mad robin.", "timestamp": "1564371054"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103940798642&reply_comment_id=10100104018208512", "anchor": "fb-10100103940798642_10100104018208512", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Judy I think that's still how you would call the figure in MWSD?", "timestamp": "1564388655"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103940798642&reply_comment_id=10100104018238452", "anchor": "fb-10100103940798642_10100104018238452", "service": "fb", "text": "→ See Weiwei's comment thread below", "timestamp": "1564388857"}, {"author": "Katie", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103940798642&reply_comment_id=10100104065783172", "anchor": "fb-10100103940798642_10100104065783172", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman And the 1 syllable/ 2 syllables. I rather like lakes and rivers.", "timestamp": "1564423202"}, {"author": "Martha", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103942120992", "anchor": "fb-10100103942120992", "service": "fb", "text": "I like robins. I also like lakes & rivers.", "timestamp": "1564338184"}, {"author": "Christopher", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103942405422", "anchor": "fb-10100103942405422", "service": "fb", "text": "A female friend of mine suggested lead/follow. Not gendered, no offending anyone, easy for people from other dance traditions (and less \"this is weird\" barrier to entry for non-dancers), and accurately indicates the non-symmetric nature of the roles.", "timestamp": "1564338491"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103942405422&reply_comment_id=10100103942535162", "anchor": "fb-10100103942405422_10100103942535162", "service": "fb", "text": "→ The problem with lead/follow is that there's a lot of disagreement in the community about how lead/follow the dance really is. To some dancers there's a strong aspect of it, while others have never even noticed this is a thing other dancers are doing.", "timestamp": "1564338587"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103942405422&reply_comment_id=10100103942585062", "anchor": "fb-10100103942405422_10100103942585062", "service": "fb", "text": "→ If everyone had the same approach to dancing that we do, I think lead/follow would be a very clear choice.", "timestamp": "1564338610"}, {"author": "Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103942405422&reply_comment_id=10100103942724782", "anchor": "fb-10100103942405422_10100103942724782", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman Some of the people who are publicly against lead/follow taking place during contra dances actually lead strongly while dancing. They just don't understand the meaning of the terms.", "timestamp": "1564338704"}, {"author": "Christopher", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103942405422&reply_comment_id=10100103943044142", "anchor": "fb-10100103942405422_10100103943044142", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman I agree that it's not very lead/follow-y (esp. when compared to partner dances), though I do think the element is there. But it also still has all the benefits above. And I don't see any great downsides --- is there really any great harm if if someone thinks it is more lead/follow-y than it really ends up being? Either they'll like the dance or not and I doubt that will have any meaningful impact on it.", "timestamp": "1564338898"}, {"author": "James", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103942405422&reply_comment_id=10100103944895432", "anchor": "fb-10100103942405422_10100103944895432", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I like the idea of lead/follow, but I worry that it might instill confusing expectations in new dancers specifically.", "timestamp": "1564339797"}, {"author": "Jonah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103942405422&reply_comment_id=10100103947215782", "anchor": "fb-10100103942405422_10100103947215782", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Christopher The equality of the two dance roles has always been one of the reasons I like contra dancing so much, so I personally don't like the idea of a language shift implicitly teaching beginners the wrong sorts of things about the dance form. Plus in practice lead/follows are still tied to gender for a lot of people so I don't think using those terms succeeds as well at making a truly gender free dance.", "timestamp": "1564341008"}, {"author": "Christopher", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103942405422&reply_comment_id=10100103957914342", "anchor": "fb-10100103942405422_10100103957914342", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jonah, equality and role are different; and it takes two to tango, as it were. I would actually suggest that obfuscating the fact that one role does have a minor lead function and the other has a minor follow function causes the exact problem you want to avoid: beginners learn the wrong thing about the dance form. Most of the world, I think, knows vaguely what \"lead\" and \"follow\" mean, even if they have never danced before, and so this helps them decide which they want. And if they have previous lead or follow experience, they will pick it up faster. So if our concern is beginners learning the dance form, we definitely should be using lead and follow.

I've argued separately that having gendered dances is fine, so whether or not something is gendered doesn't matter to me; but to say that a 'lead' implies one gender and so you won't use that word to me seems to actually reinforce existing gender-role pairings rather than reduce them.", "timestamp": "1564346518"}, {"author": "Jonah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103942405422&reply_comment_id=10100103959371422", "anchor": "fb-10100103942405422_10100103959371422", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Christopher Can you make a case that contra dancing has one role with a slight lead function and one role with a slight follow function? I don't think that it does. Or if sometimes in practice one person in a two person interaction does take a slight lead in, say, signaling the end of a swing, I don't see a reason why a person's dance role should determine who gets to decide that. Shouldn't either person be able to signal how fast they'd like to swing, or when to end it?", "timestamp": "1564347124"}, {"author": "Christopher", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103942405422&reply_comment_id=10100103959820522", "anchor": "fb-10100103942405422_10100103959820522", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jonah, Yes -- the interaction, hand placement, control of swings, etc. that I learned and that appear standard across the country follow an asymmetric pattern that matches other lead/follow dance styles.

And sure, it's not \"utter domination' and \"passive submission\" roles, and people do have autonomy and give and take. Part of dancing with a new partner is finding that balance -- both literal and figurative. That's why I stressed the led/follow is pretty minor in contra -- but still present.", "timestamp": "1564347423"}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103942405422&reply_comment_id=10100103960424312", "anchor": "fb-10100103942405422_10100103960424312", "service": "fb", "text": "→ My experience is that, in so far as there is any leading in contra, it is done by the stronger dancer, in whichever role.", "timestamp": "1564347868"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103942405422&reply_comment_id=10100103991412212", "anchor": "fb-10100103942405422_10100103991412212", "service": "fb", "text": "→ For dancers that think contra dance has a substantial leading component they usually mean something like: https://www.jefftk.com/p/what-is-leading-in-contra", "timestamp": "1564362544"}, {"author": "Jonah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103942405422&reply_comment_id=10100104030938002", "anchor": "fb-10100103942405422_10100104030938002", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman These are the four examples you have for what leading entails:

Twirls: I will grant that in my experience the gent traditionally initiates these. But I don't see that there's any reason for that. In fact, wouldn't it be better in every way if the twirler were to initiate these? I've basically stopped trying to initiate twirls when I'm dancing the lark role.

Swings: I don't know that I buy that the gent decides (or is in charge of suggesting) when to end a swing. But this is hard for me to think about or discuss without actually trying it out. I would think the experience level of the two dancers is the primary factor. If we're both experienced it seems pretty equal to me, but maybe that's a bias I have as someone who grew up mostly dancing the gent role?

Variations in the dance: If I'm understanding what you mean by this, it's something completely outside the scope of lead/follow couple dancing AND traditional contra dancing. As such, when I engage in messing around with the dance (swapping places with neighbors, etc) it's never occurred to me that it should matter what role I'm dancing.

Variations on swings: I'm reading this (correct me if I'm wrong) as meaning incorporating swing dance moves into a contra dance. IMO this is the only case here where a lead/follow dynamic is necessary and should probably be agreed upon in advance. I'm personally fine being led on things like this from any role but don't tend to initiate it. Maybe for some people this is central to what they like about contra dancing. I've even seen the argument that it's the \"natural evolution\" of contra dancing, which I think is an effed up thing to say on several levels. As someone who grew up contra dancing, to me it's the most frilliest of contra frills, and basing role terms around it would be a mistake.", "timestamp": "1564404625"}, {"author": "Jonah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103942405422&reply_comment_id=10100104031886102", "anchor": "fb-10100103942405422_10100104031886102", "service": "fb", "text": "→ By the way I didn't care so obnoxiously much about this until I encountered the \"natural evolution\" idea. Now I've become just another opinionated contra dance fanatic. \ud83d\ude02", "timestamp": "1564405628"}, {"author": "Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103942959312", "anchor": "fb-10100103942959312", "service": "fb", "text": "Given the problems specific to \"Lark\" for hearing-challenged, typically older, dancers, I would think that this would be a good chance to change both terms, rather than just one.", "timestamp": "1564338879"}, {"author": "Martha", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103942959312&reply_comment_id=10100104023837232", "anchor": "fb-10100103942959312_10100104023837232", "service": "fb", "text": "→ The thing that confuses me about Lark/Raven is that in my head Lark is a gendered name -- I think I must have known a woman named Lark at some point. But I'm also hard of hearing and that may have added to my difficulty. Would \"Lakes\" be easier to hear than \"Larks,\" do you think?", "timestamp": "1564398970"}, {"author": "Jim", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103945075072", "anchor": "fb-10100103945075072", "service": "fb", "text": "Have any Tlingit people actually complained?", "timestamp": "1564339941"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103945075072&reply_comment_id=10100103945334552", "anchor": "fb-10100103945075072_10100103945334552", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Yes, that's how this discussion started.", "timestamp": "1564340087"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103945075072&reply_comment_id=10100103945489242", "anchor": "fb-10100103945075072_10100103945489242", "service": "fb", "text": "→ \"My experience was that I decided to call larks and ravens about two years ago at a regular Fairbanks, Alaska dance as an experiment. One of the dancers, a Tlingit person who is Eagle, made a comment during the dance that she didn't want to be called \"raven\" because that was not her moiety.\" -- see comments on https://www.facebook.com/.../permalink/1937484876351438/", "timestamp": "1564340165"}, {"author": "Jonah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103945075072&reply_comment_id=10100103948438332", "anchor": "fb-10100103945075072_10100103948438332", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman I'm not a member of the group so I can't view the post you link to. Was the Tlingit dancer expressing dissatisfaction with the role terms because they didn't want to be limited to one role, or merely giving a neutral reason why they preferred the one role over the other?", "timestamp": "1564341697"}, {"author": "Jonah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103945075072&reply_comment_id=10100103948947312", "anchor": "fb-10100103945075072_10100103948947312", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Is the idea that this is an oppressive binary that some Tinglit people are trying to get away from so we don't want to reinforce it in our role terms? From my brief googling it doesn't seem equivalent to gender, though I suppose it doesn't have to be to be relevant here.", "timestamp": "1564341886"}, {"author": "Jonah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103945075072&reply_comment_id=10100103951861472", "anchor": "fb-10100103945075072_10100103951861472", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Ok, I was able to join the group and see a bit more of the context.", "timestamp": "1564343339"}, {"author": "Allison", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103948762682", "anchor": "fb-10100103948762682", "service": "fb", "text": "I dearly wish we could do lead/follow and leave out the birds and waterways \ud83d\ude1e", "timestamp": "1564341841"}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103948762682&reply_comment_id=10100103960983192", "anchor": "fb-10100103948762682_10100103960983192", "service": "fb", "text": "→ See the discussion above. I know there are callers -- including some fairly eminent ones -- who refuse to use lead/follow.", "timestamp": "1564348273"}, {"author": "Jack", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103948762682&reply_comment_id=10100104555202372", "anchor": "fb-10100103948762682_10100104555202372", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Contra is not a dance where we have one role (other than the caller) who is always the \"lead\" and one role that is always \"following\". (Unlike most types of couple dancing)", "timestamp": "1564719736"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103948762682&reply_comment_id=10100104570516682", "anchor": "fb-10100103948762682_10100104570516682", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jack this is something a lot of dancers disagree on. There are dancers convinced it's fully lead/follow, and ones who are convinced it's not lead/follow at all", "timestamp": "1564743899"}, {"author": "Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103950988222", "anchor": "fb-10100103950988222", "service": "fb", "text": "Ravens and Robins are close enough in sound, that you could simply make Robins a local option, and for now use it in the Pacific Northwest, and not be in any rush to change everything all over again.", "timestamp": "1564343014"}, {"author": "Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103952335522", "anchor": "fb-10100103952335522", "service": "fb", "text": "Lakes are generally gentle and calm. Rivers are in motion, sometimes they are forceful. I can imagine that if you introduce lakes and rivers, you're going to have some of the same problems as you have with leaders and followers.", "timestamp": "1564343592"}, {"author": "Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103954191802", "anchor": "fb-10100103954191802", "service": "fb", "text": "I see comments above about there being other objections to use of the term Ravens. So make it a general rule, that any L-one-syllable and R-two-syllable designations can be used as a local option. Make it clear that some callers are already starting to use Robins in place of Ravens, so if Ravens is to be deprecated, Robins is today's preferable replacement. Give it time to sort out. The dancers won't be confused, though it will be a little hard on visiting callers to meet local expectations.", "timestamp": "1564344615"}, {"author": "Weiwei", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103954705772", "anchor": "fb-10100103954705772", "service": "fb", "text": "We had our first \"Larks and Robins\" dance at \"Hands Four\", our new gender-free dance in the Bay Area last Friday. The feedbacks from the dancers are pretty positive, switching from \"Ravens\" to \"Robins\" seem not to be too much an issue for gender-free dancers. It is probably more challenging for callers that they have to make effort to get the right word out on the fly till it becomes natural while calling. As for the \"Mad Robin\", one of our callers mentioned that the move is used to be called \"Full Sashay\" as both dancers are moving towards the others' position and back which can also trace some of its origin from \"Chass\u00e9\" in dance. Also, in MWSD, the move \"Half Sashay\" is pretty much half of \"Mad Robin\", hence \"Full Sashay\" makes quite a bit sense, and might be helpful for teaching the move as well.", "timestamp": "1564344914"}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103954705772&reply_comment_id=10100103960738682", "anchor": "fb-10100103954705772_10100103960738682", "service": "fb", "text": "→ That's interesting -- the only use of \"sashay\" I've encountered in contra is \"roll away with a half sashay\", which has made me wonder if there's such a thing as a \"full sashay\".

I'm not thrilled at the idea of renaming the Mad Robin. I think the risk of confusion if we started calling the right-hand role \"robins\" is minimal; let's not try to change too many things at once.", "timestamp": "1564348104"}, {"author": "Jonah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103954705772&reply_comment_id=10100103962300552", "anchor": "fb-10100103954705772_10100103962300552", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Weiwei I thought a sashay was a sideways skipping step?", "timestamp": "1564348665"}, {"author": "Weiwei", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103954705772&reply_comment_id=10100103987849352", "anchor": "fb-10100103954705772_10100103987849352", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I agree that we don't have to rename \"Mad Robin\" since it's very likely won't be that confusing with \"Larks and Robins\" calling at all. The move itself takes 8 counts, so even the next move is \"Robins do sth.\", there is a clear break in between. On the other hand, if the confusion somehow appears to be a reality, I believe callers and dancers will find a way to address it. We already have \"Right shoulder around\" vs. \"Gypsie\", \"Rory O'more\" vs. \"Slide belly to belly\" switches in our local dances (possibly in the wider contra community as well), changing name of the moves when the need is there -- such as being more sensitive to different groups or being more explicit for teaching -- would be natural while the dance evolves.

I am in no position to push for changing the name \"Mad Robin\", just to be clear. However, I am a bit entertained by the history of \"Full Sashay\", and as a MWSDer, it makes quite a lot sense to me. Just putting it out there as an option in case folks would like try an alternative name for experiment.

I did a bit research for \"Sashay\":
Merriam-Webster's definitions are:
1: to make a chass\u00e9
2 a : WALK, GLIDE, GO
b : to strut or move about in an ostentatious or conspicuous manner
c : to proceed or move in a diagonal or sideways manner.

For MWSD, according to Taminations (my go-to place to refresh my mind for challenge calls,), \"Half Sashay\" is defined as: \"Dancers exchange places without changing facing directions. Dancer on the right side steps to the left while the dancer on the left steps back, side steps to the right, then steps forward, ending as a couple.\" https://bit.ly/2Zc9Ty1. I find it's relatable to half \"Mad Robin\", maybe? I guess \"Sashay\" has slightly different meanings in the context of dances. Jonah, I think you are right for most folk dance context.", "timestamp": "1564360650"}, {"author": "Dan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103954705772&reply_comment_id=10100104026970952", "anchor": "fb-10100103954705772_10100104026970952", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I've also heard calls to change \"mad robin\" on the basis of \"mad\" being a slur for mental illness. So maybe it will eventually be moot.", "timestamp": "1564402099"}, {"author": "Dan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103954705772&reply_comment_id=10100104027195502", "anchor": "fb-10100103954705772_10100104027195502", "service": "fb", "text": "→ (Oops, I didn't mean to post the same comment twice)", "timestamp": "1564402266"}, {"author": "Judy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103954705772&reply_comment_id=10100104051556682", "anchor": "fb-10100103954705772_10100104051556682", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Hi everyone, Since I started the \"sashay\" or 'Full sashay\" discussion I will add some background, as I am also a MWSdancer. \"half sashay\" and \"rollaway with a half sashay\" are still used in MWSD; sashay was in use in the 50's and was dropped sometime-sorry I don't know when. I was doing some research-a caller lent me \"Sets in Order\" the square dance magazine, from 1950-60 to look up some more obscure singing calls for a workshop. I found a singing call to \"Pack Up Your Troubles\" with the directions \"Sashay round your corner lady, bow to your pretty baby...\" However it was danced then, a sideways do-si-do or \"mad robin\" certainly works. Not necessarily advocating for change, just pointing out that an alternative already exists, if we need one. I'm all in favour of NOT re-inventing the wheel.", "timestamp": "1564416451"}, {"author": "Judy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103954705772&reply_comment_id=10100104051671452", "anchor": "fb-10100103954705772_10100104051671452", "service": "fb", "text": "→ BTW, if anyone wants the complete singing call, message me. Happy to share.", "timestamp": "1564416510"}, {"author": "Colette", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103954705772&reply_comment_id=10100104133482502", "anchor": "fb-10100103954705772_10100104133482502", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Coming from a ceili background, I grew up dancing a move virtually identical to mad robin (sliiiightly different footwork, same move functionally) by the name of \"slip sides\", which is a practical description of what happens as well as being aurally distinct from other moves", "timestamp": "1564453844"}, {"author": "Ezra", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103960953252", "anchor": "fb-10100103960953252", "service": "fb", "text": "For some reason, probably heat-related, every time I see the word \"lakes\" in this thread, I think it's \"latkes.\"", "timestamp": "1564348236"}, {"author": "Jonah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103960953252&reply_comment_id=10100103960988182", "anchor": "fb-10100103960953252_10100103960988182", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Me too.", "timestamp": "1564348273"}, {"author": "Ezra", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103960953252&reply_comment_id=10100103962894362", "anchor": "fb-10100103960953252_10100103962894362", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Latkes and rugelach? I can't map those to genders, which is good (although my mom did win a latke eating contest while pregnant with either my brother or me...)", "timestamp": "1564348745"}, {"author": "Jonah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103960953252&reply_comment_id=10100103971172772", "anchor": "fb-10100103960953252_10100103971172772", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Well in Yiddish latke is grammatically feminine and rugele is neuter. So that means something?", "timestamp": "1564352468"}, {"author": "Jonah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103960953252&reply_comment_id=10100103971197722", "anchor": "fb-10100103960953252_10100103971197722", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Also potatoes are not a meal. So this is problematic on many levels.", "timestamp": "1564352502"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103960953252&reply_comment_id=10100103991746542", "anchor": "fb-10100103960953252_10100103991746542", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Latkes and Rugelach have the wrong syllable counts.

(I also didn't realize rugelach was spelled anything like that!)", "timestamp": "1564362775"}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100103960953252&reply_comment_id=10100104037749352", "anchor": "fb-10100103960953252_10100104037749352", "service": "fb", "text": "→ A related idea is the (not-serious) suggestion, derived from the way certain New England-raised callers pronounce \"larks\", to use Lox and Bagels.", "timestamp": "1564409807"}, {"author": "Judy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100104005084812", "anchor": "fb-10100104005084812", "service": "fb", "text": "You can please some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you will never please all of the people all of the time. Who said that first?", "timestamp": "1564370810"}, {"author": "Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100104005084812&reply_comment_id=10100104014141662", "anchor": "fb-10100104005084812_10100104014141662", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Judy I think it was the original owner of the original fake cardiff giant...", "timestamp": "1564380888"}, {"author": "Kathryn", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100104048243322", "anchor": "fb-10100104048243322", "service": "fb", "text": "I like the idea of the robins going bob-bob-bobbin\" along like in the song!", "timestamp": "1564414277"}, {"author": "Bethany", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100104065019702", "anchor": "fb-10100104065019702", "service": "fb", "text": "i think we can bank on anything / everything offending someone :)", "timestamp": "1564422779"}, {"author": "Ezra", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100104065019702&reply_comment_id=10100104065453832", "anchor": "fb-10100104065019702_10100104065453832", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I like this idea. \"Anything left allemand once and a half.\" \"Everything chain.\"", "timestamp": "1564422974"}, {"author": "Adina", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100103937555142?comment_id=10100104145363692", "anchor": "fb-10100104145363692", "service": "fb", "text": "Switched from 'ravens' to 'robins' at camp. No significant appearance of trouble from dancers, only one person who said it was a challenging change to make. (It was already difficult to for the dancer to remember which role the dancer was in; adding one additional change was one thing too many.) Unprompted, about half a dozen people immediately came up to say how much better they liked using 'robins.' No-one advocated for returning to 'ravens.'", "timestamp": "1564460686"}]}