{"items": [{"author": "Christopher", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100101193214822?comment_id=10100101194816612", "anchor": "fb-10100101194816612", "service": "fb", "text": "I've stated my preference before for gents/ladies independent of ease of dancing; in terms of ease of dancing, I found learning dances at BIDA based on my recent experience more difficult than at past dances. I attribute it to three causes: difficulties the caller had with teaching dance moves; failure of the caller to identify who is in which role in an example set (with a two-women couple and a two-men couple, no visual cues as to who is dancing which role); and loss of visual cue information about which role the person approaching you is dancing due to the relatively high level of crossing of sex roles. The first two issues are easily fixable, but the loss of visual cues makes learning new dances and correcting when things get screwed up strictly more difficult.

Does that mean you have to go back to gents/ladies? No; clearly it is still possible to dance with less information and more errors. But it does have an effect.", "timestamp": "1562676451"}, {"author": "Kara", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100101193214822?comment_id=10100101198554122", "anchor": "fb-10100101198554122", "service": "fb", "text": "I started going to Contra earlier this year after watching several times. I have done larks & ravens dances.

For the first night I danced lark, and enjoyed it, and for the second and since then I've been dancing raven, and have enjoyed that. Larks being ungendered makes me feel pretty comfortable dancing lark in the future, which would be a major sticking point for me otherwise.

Overall my biggest challenges have been:
* trying to hear what the caller is saying over the music. I have difficulty picking out speech over background, or in echoey spaces.
* learning several new things on the fly during the walkthrough is a lot for me
* I don't yet have a very good memory for dances, and it takes several cycles before I start to know where to expect people to be, etc.

I think it would have been very confusing if someone had tried to suggest I switch to raven partway through the first night. I'm pretty new to any sort of dancing so really, any points of familiarity to build from are a huge help.

I'm in the Bay Area, which is pretty queer, and I think I'd probably be more than a little confused if I were trying to look for gendery cues about who the person I was interacting with next in a dance was.", "timestamp": "1562678932"}, {"author": "John", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100101193214822?comment_id=10100101198554122&reply_comment_id=10100101206383432", "anchor": "fb-10100101198554122_10100101206383432", "service": "fb", "text": "→ * trying to hear what the caller is saying over the music. I have difficulty picking out speech over background, or in echoey spaces.
When I teach people sound I emphasize 3 priorities (in order):
- can you hear the caller clearly anywhere in the hall?
- can you hear the beat and phrase?
- is the band happy?
The 3rd one sometimes conflicts with the 1st if the want the band sound to be vey loud.", "timestamp": "1562683528"}, {"author": "Martha", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100101193214822?comment_id=10100101204756692", "anchor": "fb-10100101204756692", "service": "fb", "text": "A visual cue would be a good idea. There are gay square dance groups where the roles are called Bears and Bands, and the Bands wear armbands that make them easy to identify. There are also clubs that hand out Mardi Gras beads, so maybe anyone dancing the Ravens role would wear a necklace.", "timestamp": "1562682894"}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100101193214822?comment_id=10100101204756692&reply_comment_id=10100101205979242", "anchor": "fb-10100101204756692_10100101205979242", "service": "fb", "text": "→ The Bands/Bares terminology (note: not \"Bears\"; it's short for \"bare-arms\") started at the Jamaica Plain (Boston) gender-free dance 30 years ago; we abandoned it and switched to Larks/Ravens a couple of years ago, in part because hardly anyone was wearing armbands any more, and in part because we finally accepted the fact that \"bands\" and \"bares\" can be difficult to distinguish in a noisy hall.", "timestamp": "1562683369"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100101193214822?comment_id=10100101204756692&reply_comment_id=10100101211248682", "anchor": "fb-10100101204756692_10100101211248682", "service": "fb", "text": "→ If people do want visual cues as an option I think the best way to introduce them is:

* Cues are optional, and are primarily worn by newcomers to make it easier for other people up help them

* There's one cue for each of the two roles

* Cues are not gendered: black for Raven, tan/yellow for Lark", "timestamp": "1562685893"}, {"author": "Ambivert", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100101193214822?comment_id=10100101204756692&reply_comment_id=10100101239442182", "anchor": "fb-10100101204756692_10100101239442182", "service": "fb", "text": "→ My local queer dance moved away from Bands and Bares. I thought it would be a disaster because we get a lot of first timers and how can we sort them out without something to see? I was wrong, now that people don't look at arms for the band any more, they see that someone is looking at them with their hand out. Looking at the arm means missing this. And if the group of 4 has a few first timers strugging, I can say \"larks in the middle, (then they're too late for the figure) now partner swing\" or open my arms and say \" I'm looking for a Raven, to swing! \"

I'm happy that I was proved wrong about the visual cues, because our dances have more accuracy and flow now.", "timestamp": "1562699234"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100101193214822?comment_id=10100101206498202", "anchor": "fb-10100101206498202", "service": "fb", "text": "I know that some folks believe that a visual cue helps (and some have suggested it for people with visual impairments), but one of the things that is hoped for is that people dance with the person in a certain position and nothing to do with any physical attributes about the person in that position. Like if I am standing in the raven's position, I'm a raven.

However, early on in the transition, people still do a translation in their heads of larks being gents and ravens being ladies, and thus expect larks to be males and ravens to be females - and thus when they see anything other than male lark/female raven combinations, it will still look unusual.

In order to train people to dance with the position, not the face, I say we should not have visual cues as their crutch. Considering that more and more people switch roles during the dance, visual cues would prevent this from happening (unless the cue is a hat that can easily be changed during the dance).

At least this is what's happening in my area, which is still very gendered. I was once teaching a workshop at a larks/ravens dance and one of the women there insisted to know which role was the \"lady\", and she was determined to dance that role.", "timestamp": "1562683592"}, {"author": "Christopher", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100101193214822?comment_id=10100101206498202&reply_comment_id=10100101228758592", "anchor": "fb-10100101206498202_10100101228758592", "service": "fb", "text": "→ And maybe, regarding the anecdote of the woman who really just wanted to dance the lady's role, having gendered dances isn't a bad thing either. People are comfortable with and want different things.

i would be a lot more comfortable with promoting and expanding gender-free dances if there wasn't an implicit (or often explicit) intention and long-term objective to replace all gendered dances with non-gendered ones. I've never heard an advocate of gender-free dances suggest that gendered dances should remain, except inasmuch as an less-than-ideal concession to places where a majority of the dancers haven't *yet* come around to non-gendered dancing. There's isn't an admission that maybe gendered dances are fine also on their own merits.", "timestamp": "1562694398"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100101193214822?comment_id=10100101206498202&reply_comment_id=10100101233504082", "anchor": "fb-10100101206498202_10100101233504082", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Christopher I mean, long term I don't think *gender* should remain...", "timestamp": "1562695789"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100101193214822?comment_id=10100101206498202&reply_comment_id=10100101236712652", "anchor": "fb-10100101206498202_10100101236712652", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Any dance that is explicitly gendered is often considered unwelcome and not inclusive for many people. Gender-free dances, OTOH, doesn't mean that you can't still exclusively dance the role that you're used to. But it gives everyone the option to dance in the way they prefer without anyone thinking that they are \"not normal\".

But even if the dance is \"gendered\", you should not expect everyone who is a \"gent\" to be male or everyone who is a \"lady\" to be female. These expectations are what caused people to desire gender-free dances in the first place.", "timestamp": "1562697399"}, {"author": "Ambivert", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100101193214822?comment_id=10100101206498202&reply_comment_id=10100101239781502", "anchor": "fb-10100101206498202_10100101239781502", "service": "fb", "text": "→ So, how many of the genders will we have at the gendered dances? This could be a really fun new sort of dance. Octo-contra, anyone?", "timestamp": "1562699374"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100101193214822?comment_id=10100101206498202&reply_comment_id=10100101252995022", "anchor": "fb-10100101206498202_10100101252995022", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Being more specific: gender is a thing that has a large effect on people's experience of the world and how others interact with them, and we do need words to talk about it. On the other hand, having explicit social gender, where it is expected that everyone will be male or female and we have rules like \"if you're if you're female do X\" or \"if the other person is male do Y\" is something I think we should move away from.", "timestamp": "1562705558"}, {"author": "Andrew", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100101193214822?comment_id=10100101239067932", "anchor": "fb-10100101239067932", "service": "fb", "text": "Silly tangent: have you yet succeeded in getting John Urschel to come to BIDA?", "timestamp": "1562698922"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100101193214822?comment_id=10100101239067932&reply_comment_id=10100101240050962", "anchor": "fb-10100101239067932_10100101240050962", "service": "fb", "text": "→ has anyone invited him? Is this something he'd be interested in? And, like, why him in particular?", "timestamp": "1562699495"}, {"author": "Andrew", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100101193214822?comment_id=10100101239067932&reply_comment_id=10100101240480102", "anchor": "fb-10100101239067932_10100101240480102", "service": "fb", "text": "→ He is a mathematician at MIT who used to play football for the Baltimore Ravens.", "timestamp": "1562699728"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100101193214822?comment_id=10100101239067932&reply_comment_id=10100101250554912", "anchor": "fb-10100101239067932_10100101250554912", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Andrew I guess, what about that makes you think he would be especially likely to be interested in contra? Or do you think we should just in general invite everyone to try contra and he's a person who happened to come to mind?", "timestamp": "1562703812"}, {"author": "Andrew", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100101193214822?comment_id=10100101239067932&reply_comment_id=10100101283458972", "anchor": "fb-10100101239067932_10100101283458972", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I think it would be amusing to have someone who was a Raven professionally dance the Raven part.

As mentioned, this is silly.", "timestamp": "1562720054"}, {"author": "Angela", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100101193214822?comment_id=10100101336991692", "anchor": "fb-10100101336991692", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff's point regarding newcomers inadvertently switching during the swing, and whether it's more confusing for them to be switching each time through the dance, or to be forcibly unswitched by dancers who can tell they're in the \"wrong\" position, is one that really resonates with me.

One of my earliest experiences calling for a gender free dance was in JP. At the dance, two young women arrived together after the lesson. They joined in the dance as partners, and began dancing. Every single swing, they switched roles. At first, as the caller, I was panicking for them-- this is the reaction of many experienced dancers on the floor when they see new dancers struggling to get themselves into the correct position in time for the next move. However, the dancers at JP have well over a decade of genderfree dance experience, and so I watched as those dancers, without any fanfare, danced with the couple of new dancers positionally. Everyone was smiling and happy. The new dancers had no idea they were doing anything wrong, and were allowed to just enjoy themselves. The experienced dancers, likewise, weren't affected by the novices' errors: everyone just kept dancing, and smiling, and enjoying themselves.

It's been years since that particular evening, and my experience and observations have been reinforced at countless gigs since. It's apparent to me that the _culture_ which genderfree dancing encourages allows experienced dancers to interact with beginners with more kindness and grace than gendered dancing ever has. these kinds of observations have also led me to believe that visual markers, while they could be helpful to some, would be a detriment to the culture I've seen prospering without them: had that couple of new dancers been wearing visual markers to indicate their roles in the dance, they would have been corrected, confused, and made to feel that they were doing something wrong by experienced dancers, or by me as the caller.

As I often say in my beginners lessons, Contra dancing isn't competitive. It isn't about technique, or being especially skilled. We are a community of social dancers, who arrived to enjoy music and connection with one another, regardless of our identities or beliefs. And I, for one, feel that gender free dancing helps to foster this particular set of community goals.", "timestamp": "1562767291"}, {"author": "Sarah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100101193214822?comment_id=10100101336991692&reply_comment_id=10100101347355922", "anchor": "fb-10100101336991692_10100101347355922", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Angela yeah this!! In my head before, I've called this quality of dance playful grace. It's like the yes and rule in improv, kinda. I want to add that one of the dance communities I grew up in (Rehoboth) had a very warm, accepting, playful culture -- and while the dances were all gents & ladies, many people switched, purposefully and not, and the choreography always felt very flexible. I think that happened because of the friendships and prevalent culture set down, but I've come to notice since that it's fairly rare.... And I totally agree with you that having genderfree terms, in conjunction with beginner lessons and welcome statements, really helps foster that love for each other.", "timestamp": "1562772292"}, {"author": "Angela", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100101193214822?comment_id=10100101336991692&reply_comment_id=10100101347610412", "anchor": "fb-10100101336991692_10100101347610412", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I love the parallel you've drawn to the \"yes and\" rule. That makes a lot of sense to me!", "timestamp": "1562772366"}, {"author": "Sarah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100101193214822?comment_id=10100101336991692&reply_comment_id=10100101350449722", "anchor": "fb-10100101336991692_10100101350449722", "service": "fb", "text": "→ annnd here, because I was digging through old photos for my friend's freaking baby shower, evidence of a jolly group of us dancing hither-thither genderless and silly with each other, and be being very short indeed, circa 2001:", "timestamp": "1562773564"}, {"author": "Molly", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100101193214822?comment_id=10100101336991692&reply_comment_id=10100101963665832", "anchor": "fb-10100101336991692_10100101963665832", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Sarah do you have ashes on your forehead in this picture?", "timestamp": "1563117638"}, {"author": "Sarah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100101193214822?comment_id=10100101336991692&reply_comment_id=10100102051065682", "anchor": "fb-10100101336991692_10100102051065682", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Molly haha good eyes, but no! It is in fact a temporary tat of a gecko, that I willingly applied to my forehead. Yup. Being 10, hooo boy", "timestamp": "1563164497"}, {"author": "Emily", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100101193214822?comment_id=10100101367715122", "anchor": "fb-10100101367715122", "service": "fb", "text": "I love data!", "timestamp": "1562780010"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1562984696"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100101193214822?comment_id=10100101776406102&reply_comment_id=10100101791605642", "anchor": "fb-10100101776406102_10100101791605642", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Wang this is more or less the idea behind positional calling", "timestamp": "1562996651"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1563032735"}, {"author": "Bill", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100101193214822?comment_id=10100101943226792", "anchor": "fb-10100101943226792", "service": "fb", "text": "My brain clicked - the success of Larks & Ravens calling depends on the proportion of knowledgeable dancers. When 3 of the 4 people in a minor set know what they are doing, then everyone can dance with who's coming at ya and all works - even if some of the dancers are dancing different roles from presentation.
But when fewer people are knowledgeable, then the less knowledgeable are easily confused: \"Whose hand do I take now, which way do I turn, and does that person really know more than me?\" In Boston, we are blessed with a large proportion of knowledgeable dancers and queer-tolerant non-dancers. So this confusion is short-lived and unembarassing to to most of us.
As noted above, newcomers tend to work out the traditional roles eventually. But I think the confusion is a barrier to return, and we would like to grow the community of dancers, not just in Boston but in all places.
So I would suggest that for the early dances of an evening, that Gents & Ladies be called. Then. after the basics are clear with (mostly) traditional gender presentation, the calls can switch to Larks & Ravens or Leaders & Followers.", "timestamp": "1563105225"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100101193214822?comment_id=10100101943226792&reply_comment_id=10100101950132952", "anchor": "fb-10100101943226792_10100101950132952", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Bill While I think you're right that Larks/Ravens works better the higher proportion of dancers you have that are experienced, so does everything else! When you have more newcomers, all the way up to dances that are entirely new people (like weddings) the caller can address this by choosing simpler dances, including ones where if you accidentally switch roles partway through the dance it doesn't matter much and you're still doing mostly the same movements.

\"I would suggest that for the early dances of an evening, that Gents & Ladies be called. Then. after the basics are clear with (mostly) traditional gender presentation, the calls can switch to Larks & Ravens or Leaders & Followers.\"

I don't think this would be an improvement over either a full night of Larks/Ravens or a full night of Gents/Ladies:

* Starting with Gents/Ladies indicates that one role is for men and one role is for women, which isn't what Larks/Ravens proponents want.

* At dances where people really dance \"anyone can dance any role\", gender stops being a reliable guide to what role someone is dancing. If you're new, and you come across a couple dancing Female-Gent/Male-Lady, that's much more confusing than Female-Lark/Male-Raven. In the first case the terms are actively misleading you and you need to ignore that the people don't look like gents/ladies, while in the second you just dance with the people coming at you. If a dance is almost all men dancing Gent and women dancing Lady this isn't an issue, but at a dance like BIDA where it was very common it's more of a problem.

* Switching role terms is confusing, which isn't what anyone wants. It's bad enough doing it once, as dances switch from Gents/Ladies to Larks/Ravens, but doing it intentionally every night wouldn't be great.", "timestamp": "1563110896"}, {"author": "Bill", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100101193214822?comment_id=10100101943780682", "anchor": "fb-10100101943780682", "service": "fb", "text": "At Scottish Sessions at Pinewoods (R.S.C.D.S. Boston), there was a GREAT address of this principle. At the start of the evening, the caller said \"Scottish Country dancing traditionally uses Gents & Ladies for the roles. But anyone should feel comfortable dancing in any role.\" In RSCDS it has long been noted that there are many more women than men, so most women dance equally as Gents or Ladies. But in this year's Session, thus encouraged by the caller, quite a few men danced in the Ladies role. And we all had a blast!
(Make your plans for Pinewoods ESCape or Scottish in 2020! Beginners are welcome at all sessions.)", "timestamp": "1563106138"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100101193214822?comment_id=10100101943780682&reply_comment_id=10100101949813592", "anchor": "fb-10100101943780682_10100101949813592", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Bill I think \"anyone can dance any role\" is a great message to have at dances that use gendered terms, and I'm glad it went well at Scottish Sessions this year. This is already a common message to have at contra dances, and is one that BIDA encouraged callers to give before we switched to Larks/Ravens.", "timestamp": "1563110368"}]}