{"items": [{"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100099615641292", "anchor": "fb-10100099615641292", "service": "fb", "text": "tagging Andrea and Sarah who've also been pushing positional calling", "timestamp": "1561692091"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100099618380802", "anchor": "fb-10100099618380802", "service": "fb", "text": "I think that your circumstances are spot on. I think that dances that have already gone larks/ravens and are happy with that should stay that way. For those communities that want to try something gender free but aren't fully on board with larks/ravens, positional might be the way to go since most people support that. The question I have, though, is if positional calling is acceptable to LGBTQ dancers who want the gender free role terms? (Once such dancer told me yes, emphatically, but she may not be fully representative of the movement.", "timestamp": "1561693802"}, {"author": "Joshua", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100099658051302", "anchor": "fb-10100099658051302", "service": "fb", "text": "I think I would find positional calling confusing with an allemande: Left dancers allemande right or Right dancers allemande left. Walking through a hey could also be challenging. Maybe there are clever ways to work around these. But I'm afraid it will be like one of those tests where you see the letters G-r-e-e-n and they are colored red and you have to report the color of the letters not the word.", "timestamp": "1561733914"}, {"author": "Tony", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100099658051302&reply_comment_id=10100099664742892", "anchor": "fb-10100099658051302_10100099664742892", "service": "fb", "text": "→ It looks to me as though you'd have to avoid calling certain accepted sequences -- not a good selling point for this system.", "timestamp": "1561736568"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100099658051302&reply_comment_id=10100099675476382", "anchor": "fb-10100099658051302_10100099675476382", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Joshua With positional calling you don't say confusing things like \"left dancers allemande left\", and you don't act as if \"left dancers\" or \"left side dancers\" is a role name. Instead you figure out how to teach and prompt the dance in a way where everything still feels natural. When you're new to calling this way it this means a smaller range of dances and transitions, but my understanding is pretty much any contra dance can be done this way.
(But I'm out of practice as a caller and have never called this way, so I'm mostly going on Beth's assertions here)", "timestamp": "1561741865"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100099658051302&reply_comment_id=10100099680441432", "anchor": "fb-10100099658051302_10100099680441432", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I'm sure there will be challenges, but I've started to be of the belief that the confusion of \"left dancers allemande left\" is kind of overstated. Dancers can figure these types of things out.
However, it is true that the key is in the teach, where you can hear such things more clearly, and then when the caller says \"in the middle, allemande right\", then you kind of know *who* allemandes automatically (generally the dancer on the right allemandes by the right because the right hand is the free hand, if you are standing on the side). I think that both Beth and Andrea would agree that you can probably use positional calling for any dance, even dances with unusual figures.", "timestamp": "1561743864"}, {"author": "Ted", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100100817412932", "anchor": "fb-10100100817412932", "service": "fb", "text": "I just returned from a fun week at Summer CDH. Beth used positional calling all week and it worked very well. For the dancers, the things you might expect would be confusing actually aren't in practice. The first time I heard Beth use positional calling (in Berea), I didn't even notice until I got home and someone texted me to ask me how I liked it.", "timestamp": "1562440547"}, {"author": "Henry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100100846609422", "anchor": "fb-10100100846609422", "service": "fb", "text": "When I go to dances using Larks and Ravens I typically hear that Larks are Gents and Ravens are Ladies several times during the evening. When I go to dances using ladies or ravens I invariably hear comments that they both are on the right. Cuts out a lot if confusion just to refer to the dancer on the right as the dancer on the right.", "timestamp": "1562452696"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106165525272", "anchor": "fb-10100106165525272", "service": "fb", "text": "Roni wrote up a guide: https://docs.google.com/.../1z04j13b005QEh.../mobilebasic", "timestamp": "1565649778"}, {"author": "Cecile", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106189412402", "anchor": "fb-10100106189412402", "service": "fb", "text": "I very much enjoyed dancing to lefts and rights at falcon ridge. I was recently at a dance with... Context calling? (\"people who now have their left hands free, left hand allemande\") and that was really confusing even for experienced dancers.", "timestamp": "1565658033"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106189412402&reply_comment_id=10100106220270562", "anchor": "fb-10100106189412402_10100106220270562", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Cecile what you're calling \"context calling\" is I think what most people who say \"positional calling\" are referring to?", "timestamp": "1565661568"}, {"author": "Cecile", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106189412402&reply_comment_id=10100106223264562", "anchor": "fb-10100106189412402_10100106223264562", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Maybe. I'm not sure I grasp the terms, so I'm more concerned about communicating which calling I found nice and which calling I found confusing and let other people put names to it.", "timestamp": "1565661876"}, {"author": "Roni", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106189412402&reply_comment_id=10100106235959122", "anchor": "fb-10100106189412402_10100106235959122", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Thank you for sharing your experience. I've found that the clarity of the teaching matters much more than the type of calling. For example, some people have told me they preferred a certain approach after they heard one caller do it, only to later express the opposite preference when another caller was doing it. It's been challenging to figure out how to interpret feedback about specific experiences without access to a video or full description of the teaching.", "timestamp": "1565668769"}, {"author": "Cecile", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106189412402&reply_comment_id=10100106236088862", "anchor": "fb-10100106189412402_10100106236088862", "service": "fb", "text": "→ This is true. It struck me at the time that it is probably easier to do a poor job of positional teaching than role terms teaching, but that's just speculation.", "timestamp": "1565668859"}, {"author": "Andrea", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106189412402&reply_comment_id=10100106248399192", "anchor": "fb-10100106189412402_10100106248399192", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Cecile , that might be because there is almost no difference at all when simply subbing in new role names. What you point at for people to notice is unchanged. Whereas callers have to not only understand their dances better, but get smoother at a totally different set of indicators when shifting to context/positional calling.", "timestamp": "1565689307"}, {"author": "Cecile", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106189412402&reply_comment_id=10100106259307332", "anchor": "fb-10100106189412402_10100106259307332", "service": "fb", "text": "→ This is a good point and suggests that if dance organizers want to request a specific type of calling from their callers it would be more successful to request different role terms than to ask for positional calling from callers who are not practiced in it.", "timestamp": "1565700971"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106189412402&reply_comment_id=10100106273952982", "anchor": "fb-10100106189412402_10100106273952982", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Cecile very much so! Right now we mostly have some callers working hard to figure out how to call positionally, and some series that request specific terms, for this reason.", "timestamp": "1565710791"}, {"author": "Nils", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106189412402&reply_comment_id=10100106292740332", "anchor": "fb-10100106189412402_10100106292740332", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Cecile thank you for this! Very succinctly stated, and a VERY important part of this conversation.", "timestamp": "1565719595"}, {"author": "Roni", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106189412402&reply_comment_id=10100106313164402", "anchor": "fb-10100106189412402_10100106313164402", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I agree. On the flip side, if callers want to ask dancer organizers if they can call gender-free at their Gents/Ladies dance, it may be more successful to suggest positional calling than different role terms. Some communities that oppose changing the roles names are open to positional calling because they find it less disruptive.", "timestamp": "1565724270"}, {"author": "Andrea", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106189412402&reply_comment_id=10100106317820072", "anchor": "fb-10100106189412402_10100106317820072", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Cecile , perhaps simply requesting any form of gender free calling and offering a menu of allowable choices is the most effective strategy for organizers. I\u2019d say that often the thing requiring more thought or effort has the best end result, and should not be disparaged for the slightly higher climb.", "timestamp": "1565725499"}, {"author": "Chris", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106233998052", "anchor": "fb-10100106233998052", "service": "fb", "text": "Sometimes I still feel like I just haven\u2019t found my calling yet.", "timestamp": "1565666902"}, {"author": "Carol", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106259956032", "anchor": "fb-10100106259956032", "service": "fb", "text": "Tony' comment above is spot on. When we used positional calling at an LGBTQ dance series in Minnesota in the 1980's and 1990's, there were dances we simply didn't call. I don't mind limiting my repertoire at one dance series, but wouldn't like to have to eliminate those dances from my repertoire completely.", "timestamp": "1565701202"}, {"author": "Tony", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106259956032&reply_comment_id=10100106260100742", "anchor": "fb-10100106259956032_10100106260100742", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Carol I've been meaning to ask you about that series. I'll be touching on the history of non-gendered calling in my next book, and I want to get my facts right.", "timestamp": "1565701278"}, {"author": "Carol", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106259956032&reply_comment_id=10100106260210522", "anchor": "fb-10100106259956032_10100106260210522", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I'll be happy to tell you what I know, and to put you in contact with folks who know more than I. It was well-established when I came on the calling scene in 1990.", "timestamp": "1565701342"}, {"author": "Tony", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106259956032&reply_comment_id=10100106260295352", "anchor": "fb-10100106259956032_10100106260295352", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Carol Thanks! One of my questions is why the series folded. Were the constraints on the repertoire a factor?", "timestamp": "1565701415"}, {"author": "Carol", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106259956032&reply_comment_id=10100106260380182", "anchor": "fb-10100106259956032_10100106260380182", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Well, it folded after I moved away, so I can't say for sure. But I don't think so.", "timestamp": "1565701474"}, {"author": "Henry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106264387152", "anchor": "fb-10100106264387152", "service": "fb", "text": "Maybe the dances shouldn't have been avoided. I could see folks paying a little more attention during the walk through if they thought they had to be careful with their lefts and rights. By chance what is an example of a dance that was avoided?", "timestamp": "1565703731"}, {"author": "Roni", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106264387152&reply_comment_id=10100106274776332", "anchor": "fb-10100106264387152_10100106274776332", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Carol I would also love an example. Did you not call some dances because they were difficult to teach in positional, or for some other reason? I can't think of a dance that I would not be able to teach with positional anchors, assuming that the community was not resistant to any of the anchors.", "timestamp": "1565711256"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106264387152&reply_comment_id=10100106277226422", "anchor": "fb-10100106264387152_10100106277226422", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Roni - I thought you were interested only in dances that had 0 or 1 role-based moves. I'm guessing that was only for starters, so you can graduate into dances with more role-based moves?", "timestamp": "1565712683"}, {"author": "Roni", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106264387152&reply_comment_id=10100106284456932", "anchor": "fb-10100106264387152_10100106284456932", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Perry - 0/1 was my recommendation for callers who are using positional for the first time (especially in a community that is trying it for the first time). I think it's really important to make a good first impression. I didn't mean to imply that it had to stay that way :) Let me know if there's something I can change or add to the guide to make that clearer. That said, my local community is currently very resistant to certain anchors. This does limit what I can call, but I believe that over time, if other callers join me on this adventure, we can build comfort and trust so we can expand the anchors we use.", "timestamp": "1565715843"}, {"author": "Carol", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106264387152&reply_comment_id=10100106290160502", "anchor": "fb-10100106264387152_10100106290160502", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I don't have a record of what I didn't call 20+ years ago. But here are a smattering of dances that would require considerable linguistic gymnastics to call without any references to roles:
Are You 'Most Done, by Russell Owen
Of the Mill, by John Gallagher
Diagonal Dilemma, by Gene Hubert
Diamonds are for NEFFA, by Chris Page
Dr. Bluhm's Delight, by Rick Mohr
Equinox, by Jim Kitch
Eye of the Storm, by Dan Pearl (who passes R for the 2nd half hey??)
Loon on the Lake, by Nathaniel Jack
Money in Both Pockets, by Orace Johnson
For that matter, Trip to Lambertville poses a challenge, unless you want to use first diagonal / second diagonal language. We didn't, at that series.", "timestamp": "1565719050"}, {"author": "Carol", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106264387152&reply_comment_id=10100106291048722", "anchor": "fb-10100106264387152_10100106291048722", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Could I call these dances for some select group of dancers, without reference to roles? Sure. I am capable of linguistic gymnastics. Is it worth it? It's a lot easier to just call other dances, and I expect most callers would choose to do that.", "timestamp": "1565719185"}, {"author": "Roni", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106264387152&reply_comment_id=10100106311128482", "anchor": "fb-10100106264387152_10100106311128482", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Thanks, Carol. The examples are very helpful. I think they highlight the benefits of using first/second corners as anchors, which I know some people avoid due to concerns about increased learning curve. I agree that callers may shy away from some choreography, and I'm wondering what I can do to reduce that effect. I think that sharing concise teaching scripts might help. Beyond that, looking at \"Are You 'Most Done\" also highlights the potential benefits of temporary designators and hand signals. I've found that even when using Larks/Ravens, if genders are randomly mixed across roles, it's really hard to tell who you're looking for on the R diagonal for a hey coming out of a star. I've previously suggested having the \"hey leads\" signal with their right hand as they finish the star so they can identify each other. We continue to experiment.", "timestamp": "1565723588"}, {"author": "Roni", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106285764312", "anchor": "fb-10100106285764312", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff - To your original question (what people see as a better fit for contra dance long term): I think it depends on how the choreography of the dance evolves. Contra does not inherently require a \u201cright-side dancer\u201d and a \u201cleft-side dancer.\u201d It seems that way because the last few decades of choreography have emphasized uneven use of asymmetrical moves within couples. You can see a good parallel in the trajectory for the terms active/inactive couples (aka 1s/2s). The dance doesn\u2019t inherently require two couple roles. It used to be pivotal to the dance 50 years ago because the choreography favored different moves for the active couple. As the choreography evolved, more and more dances had identical moves for all couples. The usefulness of the distinction was reduced over time. Now, some callers barely mention those terms. A simple \u201cface your N, this is the direction you\u2019ll be travelling\u201d conveys everything you need to know about which couple you are. Where the terms are still popular, it\u2019s in large part due to the force of tradition. I\u2019ve been to dances where the term was only used once in an entire evening (for the one dance that required the distinction). If we went back in time and asked callers if they thought the active/inactive distinction was important to the dance, many would look at us in confusion. \u201cIt\u2019s essential! I mean, the dance doesn\u2019t work without it. How could we call our dances if people didn\u2019t know which couple they are? That wouldn\u2019t be contra anymore.\u201d Yet here we are, with almost no active/inactive distinction, and it\u2019s still contra. Today, you see the same reaction to the idea that left-side/right-side is not the most important part of the dance. \u201cBut the dance has roles! We have to name them!\u201d That\u2019s because today, many of the dances favor uneven use of within-couple moves. Tomorrow, they may not.
Here\u2019s an example of how a change in popular choreography would make positional calling easier to use than Left/Right role names. If the average dance event had an equal number of right-hand chains and left-side chains for all dancers, we wouldn\u2019t think of the chain as a move for the so-called \u201cright-side dancer.\u201d The chain would be a move for two people, where one of them does a pull-by while the other one slides over to take their place, then both do a courtesy turn with another dancer. If the \u201cright-side dancer\u201d is doing the pull-by part of a left-hand chain, they are the \u201cleft-hand dancer\u201d during that move. A role name is more cumbersome than positional calling in this case. The dancer has to remember that they started the dance on the right, even when they\u2019re starting a move from the left. If the same dancer does the pull-by part of both a right-hand chain and a left-hand chain in the same dance, thinking of themselves as a \u201cright-side dancer\u201d or a \u201cleft-side dancer\u201d is even more confusing. In context/positional calling, they only need to know where they are right now, something they always know if the caller is clear. They don\u2019t need to remember a role that sometimes contradicts their current position.
In part, the choreography has been uneven because it reflects gender inequality. The Chain is an excellent example. There\u2019s no reason for the choreography to favor right-hand chains. In fact, when chains follow a swing, it would make more sense to favor left-hand chains. The left-side dancer has forward momentum at the end of a Swing, which creates better flow. I believe the choreography has favored right-hand chains because women have been dancing in the \u201cright-side role.\u201d This allows men to \u201cescort\u201d the women around, lead flourishes, and remain in control. Some callers use phrases like \u201cGents, chain the Ladies across,\u201d which also reflect the perception that the men have more agency and are \u201cdoing things with the women.\u201d I would like to see the choreography evolve toward more gender equality, which would also reduce the value of role names and increase the usefulness of positional calling.", "timestamp": "1565716250"}, {"author": "Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106316063592", "anchor": "fb-10100106316063592", "service": "fb", "text": "The dance community put a lot of effort towards a new standard, Larks and Ravens, or its variant Larks and Robins, and throughout this process there were repeated reminders that Larks was one syllable, while Ravens (or Robins) was two syllables, and this helped the dancers distinguish between them in a noisy environment. Has this been forgotten? Left and right are each one syllable.", "timestamp": "1565724870"}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106316063592&reply_comment_id=10100106324561562", "anchor": "fb-10100106316063592_10100106324561562", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Good point. I find that I often have difficulty (during the dance and therefore with other sounds competing) hearing the difference between \"left\" and \"right\", and have to rely on a combination of what I remember (from the walk-through and previous iterations) and what other people are doing.", "timestamp": "1565729098"}, {"author": "Roni", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106316063592&reply_comment_id=10100106343862882", "anchor": "fb-10100106316063592_10100106343862882", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I think there may be some confusion about what positional calling means. As I use it, it does not mean using Left for Lark and Right for Raven/Robin. It means not naming the roles at all. So the number of syllables in Left and Right is not relevant, because I don't call using Lefts and Rights. I may use \"free right hand\" to identify dancers when I teach an asymmetrical move during the walk-through, but I don't repeat that reference when I call. It's not needed.", "timestamp": "1565739185"}, {"author": "Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106316063592&reply_comment_id=10100106344596412", "anchor": "fb-10100106316063592_10100106344596412", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Roni, perhaps I misunderstand positional calling, but I thought that because the roles were not named, there would be more frequent reference to which hand to use. Hence the problem we have with ladies/gents or with larks/robins, that commands to use right or left hand are sometimes misunderstood, is magnified with positional calling. But perhaps I misunderstand. I will learn more, Greenfield Grange, Oct 6, with Will Mentor calling. That will be my introduction to positional calling.", "timestamp": "1565739514"}, {"author": "Roni", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106316063592&reply_comment_id=10100106346547502", "anchor": "fb-10100106316063592_10100106346547502", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Michael You're not alone :) Different callers are trying different approaches, and we're all evolving over time, so you may have seen / read about / experienced something different than I have. I agree that most approaches so far seem to result in a higher number of right/left references during the walk-through, but that can be avoided during the actual dance. I thought the main concern for hearing left/right distinction was during calling, when there's not much time to clarify confusion and the dance can get derailed. During the walk-through, if someone mishears the caller, other dancers have time to gently help them out (and the caller can repeat and clarify as needed). I don't know which approach Will is planning to use, but I'd love to hear how it goes.", "timestamp": "1565740344"}, {"author": "Andrea", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106316063592&reply_comment_id=10100106396547302", "anchor": "fb-10100106316063592_10100106396547302", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Michael , Largely ignored, however, was that anything beginning with L/R, which are nearly identical phonemes, and soft to boot, would be as difficult to discern, even with extra syllables, as the words Left and Right.
Those of us calling positionally and teaching corner/diagonal positions, refer to left and right far less. If Will uses this, and you attend that dance, you will see how that works.", "timestamp": "1565775830"}, {"author": "Katie", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106332061532", "anchor": "fb-10100106332061532", "service": "fb", "text": "Come experience the experiment with Will Mentor using positional calling in Greenfield, Saturday afternoon, Oct 6, from 2-5. I don't know how to link to the invite.There will be time for discussion at the break and after, as well as, I expect a lot of laughter.", "timestamp": "1565733332"}, {"author": "Andrea", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106332061532&reply_comment_id=10100106396028342", "anchor": "fb-10100106332061532_10100106396028342", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Katie , do we know whether he is using Beth\u2019s method which really just subs R/L for role names, or true positional calling using either corners or flow to teach?", "timestamp": "1565774898"}, {"author": "Beth", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106332061532&reply_comment_id=10100106405219922", "anchor": "fb-10100106332061532_10100106405219922", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Andrea My approach is not simply a matter of subbing rights and lefts for role names. I call positionally whenever possible without adding corner terms and using flow of the choreography to establish who does what. Only using right side dancer or left side dancer when necessary (which might only be six times or less throughout an evening's program). This method is certainly evolving for me every time that I call as I observe what works and what produces confusion and thinking about choreography in an entirely new way.", "timestamp": "1565784939"}, {"author": "Katie", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106332061532&reply_comment_id=10100106414516292", "anchor": "fb-10100106332061532_10100106414516292", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Beth Hi, I wasn't at Falcon Ridge so I wasn't there for your dances. As I haven't done this yet, and Andrea, I don't know what Will is going to do, I am full of curiosity. I do ECD and am used to \"first corners\" and the like. You aren't using that? Is that too much of a new element for contra dancers?", "timestamp": "1565791431"}, {"author": "Andrea", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106332061532&reply_comment_id=10100106414621082", "anchor": "fb-10100106332061532_10100106414621082", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Beth My apologies, I only have others\u2019 descriptions to go on for now till I can dance to your calling myself. The reports may well misrepresent what you do.
Whatever the source, there seems to be a style out there which treats rights and lefts more or less as roles and that I do distinguish from positional/contextual calling.
I hope the October 6 dance will fully explore positional calling. I wish they had invited someone who already does it to join them.", "timestamp": "1565791557"}, {"author": "Katie", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106332061532&reply_comment_id=10100106415464392", "anchor": "fb-10100106332061532_10100106415464392", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Andrea We all need to find opportunities to experience this form of calling. I think words are going to trip us up when used in the abstract. Sorry you don't live closer to Greenfield so that you could come to Will Mentor's dance on Oct 6!", "timestamp": "1565792091"}, {"author": "Andrea", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106332061532&reply_comment_id=10100106415569182", "anchor": "fb-10100106332061532_10100106415569182", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Katie , I am using corners. No idea if Will plans to.", "timestamp": "1565792269"}, {"author": "Katie", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106332061532&reply_comment_id=10100106416342632", "anchor": "fb-10100106332061532_10100106416342632", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Andrea Using first corners, etc. is second nature to me but I don't know if that is the case for others. I know some of the cross over callers, who call contra and ECD, throw in first corners in a regular dance. The ECD people smile and the contra dancers look startled. Then they figure it out. I love all the buzz around this and SO look forward to Will's dance.", "timestamp": "1565792723"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106332061532&reply_comment_id=10100106417225862", "anchor": "fb-10100106332061532_10100106417225862", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Andrea do you know of anyone in particular who is calling that way, with Left and Right effectively as terms? I've heard a lot of people saying that someone is doing it, but it's not clear to me that anyone actually is?", "timestamp": "1565793298"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106332061532&reply_comment_id=10100106417335642", "anchor": "fb-10100106332061532_10100106417335642", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I'm glad that Beth is able to clarify her method as not simply using rights and lefts as role names. Somehow in this game of telephone in describing her method that's how it came across as (could be partially my fault), but it sounds like whatever she is doing works, and plus she continually massages her method whenever she encounters something that may not work so well.
I did dance to Andrea's calling and found out that relatively simple using the corner terminology, though many not know what first or second corners unless they are familiar with ECD. I think that Andrea explained it rather well, though.
Regardless of Andrea's or Beth's method, I do think that the key is that the teaching is extremely important in this type of calling. It is new to a lot of people, so effective teaching will lead to an easier understanding of what dancers need to do with role-free calls. And of course for dancers to listen to the teaching.", "timestamp": "1565793376"}, {"author": "Andrea", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106332061532&reply_comment_id=10100106417410492", "anchor": "fb-10100106332061532_10100106417410492", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman , I\u2019ve lost sight of it in all the threads, clearly, misattributing it to Beth.
In DC at least two callers have called part or all of a dance role free besides me. Susan Taylor used Right and Left but I don\u2019t remember whether it amounted to roles or not. I wasn\u2019t present when Anna Rain called.", "timestamp": "1565793463"}, {"author": "Don", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106387784862", "anchor": "fb-10100106387784862", "service": "fb", "text": "I'm glad to see this being explored in this way. When the recent \"gender free\" impetus first started I raised the point behind the scenes to several in the vanguard that what was really coming to be was \"alternative role terms\" and, if true gender freedom was the goal of a community, it would require more than simply aliasing the role names - you needed to change/filter the choreography (and/or its presentation) to remove them. That challenging work is essentially what's being talked about here. Nice.", "timestamp": "1565757512"}, {"author": "Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106399700982", "anchor": "fb-10100106399700982", "service": "fb", "text": "This discussion, combined with news that Neffa has to move again, makes me remember Neffa at Natick about 20 years ago, and reminds me of the old caller, who even then was long out of date, who was teaching a square in the main dance hall. After the teaching, he said \"okay girlies, go back to papa\". And there was this rumble of disapproving grumbling throughout the hall. We've come a long way in the last few years, but an even longer way since the time when that old caller had been young, and had just been doing what callers did back in his time.", "timestamp": "1565780133"}, {"author": "Tony", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/10100099615296982?comment_id=10100106399700982&reply_comment_id=10100106438987252", "anchor": "fb-10100106399700982_10100106438987252", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Wow! I don't remember anyone, even Ralph Page, who would have been that demeaning.
Michael makes a good point: that we often do things because we see and hear them modeled, especially early in our life or career. I remember one or two callers who used the N-word freely in conversation because they'd grown up with it. (I also have a 78 rpm record from around 1950 where the caller uses it in his patter.)
I heard a lot of the \"swing that pretty little thing\" type of patter during my formative years. Sometime in the 1970s I made a conscious effort to remove it from my vocabulary, but I still have to watch myself because it's so ingrained.
All of this is to say that things evolve. We may feel discomfort at some of the changes, and that may spur us to advocate changing in a slightly different way from our colleagues -- but change is inevitable. I'd hate to think we'll ever have to give up using certain movements and sequences because it's become hard to call them effectively. But in the long run I won't have much influence on what happens.", "timestamp": "1565805717"}]}